speculator

I have this fascination, no cause for deviation.

Blind ignorance and failure to acknowledge and address some reasonable questions could be construed as having a 'mental problem'. It's called living in denial and with the exception of Derry not one poster has tried to tackle the issues and therefore they will remain festering away in the background until the arguments can be discussed and settled in a less infantile way. I can't provide any comment on the rest of your post but to say, is it not just a convienient smokescreen to avoid debating MLT's role with Pinnacle or trying to defend what maybe indefensible?

I totally agree to the point you make in your last paragraph and has IMO always smacked of the club avoiding trouble on their premises only to allow trouble to occur up the Britannia Road around the away coaches. Let the home crowd disperse and then release those teams with the travelling thugs under police escort to their transport. The club have a responsibility to those of us inside the ground and to the general public and local businesses to ensure a peaceful disbursement after a match. Restricting access to the north car park doesn't cut it IMO and maybe the new regime will be able to address this problem going forward.

A couple of points re the above post in an attempt to bury the stories once and for all. If MLT knew funds were not there going into exclusivity why did he continue to give Pinnacle the benefit of his endorsement right up to the point they removed their bid? It is folly to say the problems with Pinnacle were not MLT's. The fact he was willing to lay his reputation as a Saints legend on the line and endorse the bid knowing the hugely positive effect this would generate was a major factor in raising the credibility of the Pinnace bid. Given that importance was MLT naive, lazy, hoodwinked os simply smug that whatever the outcome he could do no worng in the eyes of Saints fans and therefore extremely complacent in adding creedence to the bid? Many have idenitified issues with the quality of our squad such as lack of experience, cover and fitness. To address all these issues we needed one thing and one thing only with the current set up in place - TIME. The one precious commodity that Pinnacle, Crouch and MLT robbed the club of in my very humble opinion. To cheer MLT in a such way was as much to recognise him as a playing legend but equally a misguided kick in the teeth to Liebherr, Cortese and Oldknow as like the rest of us I am sure they would have welcomed the opportunity to start their work on rebuiliding this club at least 5 weeks earlier than they were afforded by the Pinnacle bid strongly endorsed by MLT. Playing legend he maybe and judging by the comments above one who is trying to rewrite his sorry role in the club's recent history or avoid talking about it altogether. IMO his laidback, confident and strolling style as a player was probably equally evidenced in his approach in choosing to support Pinnacle. Time is a great healer and personally I would prefer for the time being to see MLT back working with Jeff Steling on a Saturday so as not to grace us with his presence and risk rubbing it in to those who were somewhat more genuine in their bid IMO. Our loudest roars of recognition should be reserved for Mr Liebherr and his team and it is disingenuous of us all to be cheering their competitor regardless of his previous status for at least this season.

How many home games did Derby go without a win and yet maintain an average over 29,000? Conversely, I doubt Wigan could improve on their season last year and yet they only achieved around 19,000. Your logic doesn't always apply.

This is the understandable attitude of fans that will surely see crowd numbers fall and whilst we have a strong STH base most visiting teams will not exactly fill their allocation and the suggested 16k break even point could easily fail on 50% of the games. Can fans for once overcome their disappointment and support the club for the greater good in the long term along the lines of the likes of Norwich. Leeds, Derby and others. History does not support the hope that we can.

That in a nutshell is that. Spend only what we earn and despite how close we came to going out of business we still cannot provide a fan base as loyal as the likes of Norwich, Leeds and probably even Charlton. We have consistently proven in the past we can fill our stadium but we need to wake up to the fact we actually have a relatively small but loyal following and they on their own cannot generate the income the club will need to pull ourselves out of this league with any ease. My concern is that if we take as long as Leeds have then we could be in trouble as those wrongly filled with hope just off the back of a wealthy owner will soon become disillusioned and dwindling attendances as evidenced by the past will not exactly send a strong message to Mr Liebherr that we have a fanatic support willing to help through the good and bad times. Fan apathy has let us down in the past and I fear it may do so again in the future unless the 'premeirship plastics' can be encouraged to watch league 1 football and boost the crowd numbers above just those returning from misguided boycotts. 20k for the first game of the season is ok but doesn't really compare favourably to previous seasons especially given the life line we have received from Mr Liebherr for which he now requires some vested interest on our part which I fear we cannot meet his expectations.

Students should not receive a discount for the same reason as unemployed fans or those on long term benefit do not get a discount. A case could be made for any group who are experiencing financial hardship but the club would then have an unmanageable list of concessions and the cost of policing to avoid fraud would be so great they could actually lose money not to mention the length of queues on match days as various forms of proof were sought by the club before ticket purchase. In any event even the most broke fan whatever their circumstances could prioritise their income expenditure to attend the odd game. Perhaps a little less spent on beer and fags or whatever the vice of the individual. A student loan and a part-time job will allow for a little recreation money as will Jobseekers allowances and other forms of benefit. Children represent the fans of the future and pensioners equally worthy of concessions as they have the most free time to attend matches without finding the time to do all those little jobs the rest of us have to find at weekends around the weekly grind. Most students will return home after their time at Southampton and those Southampton students based miles away are hardly going to make much effort to attend home games given the distractions at university even if entrance was free and the so called gap year is unlikely to see them returning from their travels. The portion of Southampton based students attending local colleges and universities that support Saints is probably even smaller than the number of fans wanting to support and attend a 'legends' game to 'save' the club. Use your student loan or do a small job to earn the price of your ticket, past 16 years of age, education should no longer be deemed a right or easy meal ticket and neither should it be. It is hard work training to be doctor and rightly so - it's called preparation , but the rewards are equally commensurate so students please get over yourselves.

The past will take a while to be buried as the cartel of ITK's and private members club that operates on this forum will get use to the idea that they cannot influence the future but merely accept Mr Liebherr's direction. They can however continue to be all knowing and defensive of their past positions. The PLC had it's faults but the ability to own a part of the club and thereby influence or change it's direction was perhasp not one of them and we are now merely sitting tennants to the whim of a powerful individual and my guess Art is that will take a period of adjustment for some.

An interesting post and I would have to question the gulliability / judgement of Messrs Crouch, Le Tissier and Fry . Personally, I don't buy terms like 'not told the truth' or the 'MLT factor' as reasons for cloudy judgement. Fry in the end served his purpose but the other two had far more to lose/gain from all this and on reflection its makes their contribution look astoundingly naive or simply grave errors of judgement IMO. I agree with FF's conclusion and not suprised Liebherr and his team are slightly miffed at Pinnacle's pathetic attempts (People had the audacity to criticise Jackson and Green) of a LBO. In the long term I am confident it will work out but thanks to the unnecessary delays created by Pinnacle and those that allowed them the credibility to proceed it will be a rocky start to the season and another where survival is the primary aim. Crouch will hopefully move on and quickly and its pleasing to see his investment in Eastleigh and it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

Genoristy is a wonderful trait if used wisely.

Equally, some might argue without Crouch's perverse meddling at times, the whole sorry saga of the past 3 years may not have happened. The only benefit we have achieved is that we are now a club without debt but one with seemingly no money to spend until such time the club can show it can generate it's own finance. Futhermore, any influence we may have had over the club is gone other than the usual voting with feet which thankfully is not going to happen if the ST sales are a guide to decent attendances in the long run. Crouch is a dinosaur as are his methods and one who apparently still believes that throwing his money around will cure all ills. Crouch should be thanked for our future no more than we should offer thanks to Lowe or Mchameleon and Andrew Oldknow is the man whose contribution we have really overlooked as custodian of our future. The real issue is can those jumped up alleged ITK's cope with a club run as a competent commercial enterprise and one whose soul aim is to generate a business that is self sufficient and largely secretive. A business that can be run without any contribution from directors whose ego's are allegedly bigger than their financial acumen? The club can only improve without the 'look at me' types of Lowe and Crouch and their close 'friends'. Asking for them to purchase a ticket is IMO as much to do with burying the hatchet of the past as recognising the need for them to pay for their past contributions. Concessions need not apply in these instances.

John Barnes being a case in point

Sums up my view and I feel Pardew whilst not the most obvious choice he does have a managerial pedigree at all levels of the game and we are only beginning to maybe understand the restrictions he was under at Charlton, worse than us maybe? Strachan was universally disliked at Coventry and apart from Lowe I cannot remember anyone jumping up and down over his appointment first time around and like Redknapp can probably only manage with an open chequebook. It appears there are no guarantees that our new manager will have an open ended budget so somebody of Pardew's considered approach as oppose to the fiery and at times weird approach of Strachan will be more suitable, certainly to a Swiss of German origin. Strachan peaked at Southampton, as anyone of us could manage Celtic especially as Rangers should no longer be able to compete financially at least for the time being and yet Strachan evened the playing field for them. We would be a monkey on Strachan's back and and vice versa and in life there are infinitely more reasons never to go back than to justify a return. I hope that this is the last we hear of Strachan in any capacity as we don't need a director of football with a manager of Pardew's experience. Tisdale would need one in my opinion as he has been working with Perryman and is still a one hit wonder. Therefore, I think that will rule Tisdale out and any other junior one club managers. Get the hire right and you don't a DoF.

I take it you're not in the commerical sector as you sound like a civil servant being ever so politically correct and inefficient with the tax payers money. Are you condoning that anybody who currently buys an adult pair of ST's can buy an adult and junior or OAP and junior and save themselves a nice few quid? For every genuine situation that has been discussed here others will cotton on and try and milk the system so yes I would prefer strict ticket checks to maximise revenues as oppose to turning a blind eye to the less scrupulous who may 'play' the system. If you have ever forgotten your ST on a match day you will be aware the club is not quite so friendly and charitable in charging you in essence a fine for a genuine mistake on top of the grief of queuing and perhaps missing the start of the game. If you offer concessions its pointless if they are not policed otherwise we will have a fanbase made up solely of teenagers and OAPs! Beware of people who use phrases like 'you sir' in posts, I nearly felt the flick of your glove across my face, what a dandy you are sir.

No disrespect but you would hope that our new management team would put procedures in place to avoid the club being so easily ripped off. To be safe would it not be better for you to buy two adult tickets or simply pay for an upgrade as and when you need it. You and your Dad will look a bit stupid if you try to blag it and the stewards do check as a result of tighter ticket controls implemented by the management team. Sounds like the club were throwing money away last year, mind you I think you could have handed them a till receipt and got in. I hope this loophole is tightened up, if the London Underground can tackle fair dodging why can't our club.

Thanks for the info (Tame Saint and Wes Tender thanks as well) they make interesting reading. With the club having sold 5,500 tickets already, at least last year's total should be exceeded and with or without the appointment of Strachan, sales in excess of 12,000 could be achievable if the 1 in 5 new to renewal ratio is maintained. Even allowing for the usual attrition rates on renewals which may be higher this season which, unusually this may not be due to relegation as those effects may be offset by the hope of a new owner but because of the state of the economy and rising unemployment. This has to be good news for the club as hopefully it will send a statement of intent from the fans to Markus Liebherr that his investment is likely to be rewarded provided they don't recruit Tony Adams. I must admit not many on here had mentioned they had already renewed or purchased their new ST and so I was assuming that the queues at SMS were not exactly snaking around the stadium. It seems though I was wrong and perhaps shows that although this forum is by far the most popular for Saints fans it actually represents quite a small perecntage of the overall fanbase and has a high population of those who have moved overseas or unable to attend matches for whatever reason and the forum helps them get their regular Saints fix. However, as a barometer of what fan's are actually doing in reality it may not be that reflective of those behaviours. I didn't have any sense from this forum that ST sales had gone so well, did others?

Interesting debate but does anyone know how many season tickets have been sold and roughly the split for renewals and new orders. It seems the returning army whatever their regiment are not exactly noses pressed against the ticket windows and I am wondering if the lack of a managerial appointment and the complete absence of any rumour (apart from the persistent Tony Adams stories) is having a detrimental effect on sales. Would any SMS employees like to share their statistics on ST sales to date or perhaps the number of tickets sold for the Ajax game.

Lifting up the carpet isn't the best approach and in just these short messages I don't get any sense of empathy, thanks or recognition to those fans who continued to renew their season tickets and therefore helped fight off administration. Perhaps the loyal few contributed long enough to ride out the worse of the recession. Everybody seems quick to put the boot into Guided Missile but not one has acknowledged that he and others helped keep the club going. If we had gone bust before Christmas 'the close run thing' of administraton may have been even closer in the grip of a winter of discontent. I assume Wes Tender you were a non-attendee last season and therefore have a vested interest to play up your contribution and make the call for all to move on. That is very noble but it seems without any magnamity on your part and simply acknowledging your action as being the right action is fuelling the divide.

Thought provoking post that has attracted a majority of calls for us all to move on and forget the past. However, it's difficult not to notice that many of those calls to forget are coming from fans who chose not to attend last year. As the new season approaches are those fans who stayed away now experiencing some guilt at re-entering the fold labelled as a plastic or deserter and thinking about the excuse they will concoct to satisfy those staunchly loyal fans like Guided Missile who may be less than welcoming should the truth be known about their returning presence. You can't change history and when you throw money and new found ambition into the mix you have the basis for some years of discontent yet. Time will only heal the damage that has been done to our fanbase and certainly not the calls to let bygones be bygones from deserters or those supportive of administration. Those calls are quite shallow and serve only to antagonise those who stayed loyal. For many it's great Lowe has been banished for ever. The problem is the division we (club and fans) allowed to be created around the time of his departure in 2006 and in our failure to fully appreciate the gravity of the situation that precipitated his return has left us with a legacy of a rift so deep that many have already lost their judgement and patience with regard to our new board. In our panic to 'settle down' over the manager situation , new signings and need toestablish the size of the kitty, the infighting is manifesting itself once again. Guided Missile has a point and I empathise with his message. It's similar to the slogan 'a dog is for life....'. You cannot choose to look after it when you want to.

I think you can say an individual who initially did not have a high profile reputation to trade off and therefore had to rely on his hard work to earn them the breaks. Even the likes of Ferguson, Wenger and the Special One had ordinary backgrounds. You can always highlight exceptions but otherwise I think you have hit on a sound theory. Might also explain why Scotland has introduced the world to some great managers over the years.

Probably crux of the issue as initially I was 100% behind the Pinnacle bid but the misinformation especially with regards to the source of funds has left me questioning my own initial judgement. Just wish we knew more about the Swiss deal.

124 years is some beginning.

2 but sometimes 4/5 (minus the p155ed and Ultra bit) if antagonised by a 4/5.

MLT aside, I dread the thought of Lynam and Fialka getting any nearer to our club than they are all ready. IMO senior businessmen involved in complex takeovers do not act all matey on fans forums and whilst I accept the Echo may not have marked Fialka's card 100% correctly, no smoke without fire and I'm sure some if not all the stories that they have published give at least some cause for concern. Certainly, he gives no aura of a millionaire or someone who has access to wealth. IMO he gives the impression of a small time property developer with delusions of grandeur on an unprecedented scale. As for Lynam he seems to have rewritten the book 'How to be Popular with Fans' allegedly written in the beginning by Leon Crouch. Frankly if the Swiss don't get in I would prefer Lowe back with McMenemy as our new forward thinking manager. In the meantime my concern is for MLT's reputation as I can't equate his reasons for support with my negative opinion on everything else regarding Pinnacle. I want MLT at the club but not with the Pinnacle consortium as owners, I simply have a very bad feeling about the whole thing given the size of our club and as others have said it just doesn't stack up despite reports to the contrary. Fialka is buying Saints and on the face of it doesn't have the money or the business acumen to make a success of Winchester City.