Verbal

I don't think I've heard a better, more eloquent takedown of one of Trump's key racist talking points - NFL players 'taking the knee'. Peto O'Rourke is going to go far - something of Robert Kennedy about him.

What ludicrous tosh. If you actually believe this then you really are gullibly receptive to the manipulative crap from the Putin troll factories. Most people can see through this 'why can't we see them daub the front door' nonsense quite easily.

Another one who doesn't understand the distinction between health and welfare. Why is that even surprising?

Not to mention that the EU have sworn never to go down the Swiss route ever again, for very good reasons. The upshot of all of this is that regardless of which side of the debate you're on, the UK has become a highly volatile country, where it's simply unsafe for many companies to make large investment commitments, and where it's safe to assume that many of those companies, especially those relying on JIT, will have to look ever more closely at relocating within the EU. Even Minford accepts, and even assumes, the rapid decline of British manufacturing post-Brexit. And that means, higher-paid, higher-skilled jobs will decline with it. This instability has seen the cliff-fall of inward investment, which will work its way through the economy like woodworm. The erosion of the City, as a world-leading financial powerhouse, will also slash government tax receipts by billions. Then again, there's no parliamentary majority for ANY of this.

It's utterly baffling that you cannot accept a simple demonstrable fact. And your failure enrages you so much that you stomp off in a tantrum rather than admit you're wrong. The last time I saw someone behave in quite this way was in primary school.

I hate to break it to you but the welfare and health budgets are and always have been separate. It amazes me that you've reached beyond puberty (if so) without knowing this. Here'a a breakdown of UK public spending so that you can catch up on your lost years. https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_health_care_spending_10.html

Here's how totally fu cked the British far left are. (And it hardly speaks that well of some British universities)... Anyone who's read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago or One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich will have some idea of the sheer horror of the Soviet gulag system. As a means of brutal, de-humanising oppression, used especially against dissenters, it's unparalleled - reducing people to the non-living without (some of the time) actually killing them. So here's an anonymous LGBTQ Twitter account at Goldsmith's London seriously telling us why gulags are actually a good thing for those - 'bigots' - who disagree with them (especially, I notice, a number of feminist academics who object to the bullying behaviour of some trans activists). https://twitter.com/lgbtqgold/status/1039140880731521025 Are these people actually Corbynists? I don't know. I doubt they're Blairite Red Tories though. In any case, this is truly poisonous stuff, and on a par with Holocaust denial.

Wait. So you attack my argument about welfare cuts with an image about a (fake) promise about health? You do realise welfare and health are different things entirely, right?

I suspect the one thing the headbangers do agree on is that what worked in June 2016 should work again now. So never, ever lay out a plan. Always be the opposition to everything. Never give your opponent the opportunity to see what you really have in mind. Not that any of the actual plan would have been controversial. Like sending an 'expeditionary force' to the Falklands (WTF?), building a union-jacked 'Star Wars' missile defence system (WTAF?), and giving such massive tax breaks to the rich that the only way to pay for it is basically to shut down the UK's welfare system (that one I get - it's always been the ultimate unstated aim of the financiers of Brexit).

Have you considered running for the presidency of the United States? It's just that you share patterns of linguistic incoherence with a certain someone - and his massive sense of paranoiac grievance.

Welcome back, our very own Saintsweb Schlemiel! I'm a bit surprised though that you and the other Lounge Clowns for Brexit haven't challenged Honda on how to build cars. Any thoughts? Some expertise on abandoning just-in-time manufacturing altogether, perhaps? And nothing at all to say on the Is-Jezza's-a-Jew-hater thread? Disappointing.

Some interesting facts from those nice people at the Honda factory in Swindon: Car components arrive less than an hour before they are used on the assembly line. The plant receives 350 truck deliveries of EU-sourced parts every single working day. The plant only has warehouse storage to stockpile half a day's worth of components. The loss of free movement of goods within a customs union will mean the Swindon plant will cost Honda an extra £1m to run, every single day - over a third of a billion every year. I wonder what the outcome of all that will be...?

You've read it on this thread where I've advocated the Norway option (plus customs union). But it's all too late JJ. It's Chequers or bust - and there's no parliamentary majority for either. No one can deliver anything. It's a complete stalemate, and the only way out, so the argument goes, is the mother of all fudges, in which May gets to kick the problem even further down the road. But - guess what? There's no parliamentary majority for that either.

Poverty is defined absolutely nowhere as 'people dying from hunger'. That's an absurd statement.

Leadership election, Lord Torycrap, not general. That should have been obvious, given that's what we're talking about. The wheels are just about to fall off Chequers, remember? Keep up! I'm not sure you're managing this being-a-Tory-member thing at all well - and it's such early days! And now you're a loyal Tory, and so officially dedicated to fu cking people over who are less fortunate then you, let's hear you sing the praises of your great leader. And perhaps a curtsy?

The way things have gone today, it's pretty clear there'll be an election challenge over the Chequers deal well before the November deadline. As I said, Lord Crap hasn't thought this through and he's going to have to watch impotently on the sidelines. And he's still missing an essential ingredient in the Tory party rules that's going to send his £6 down the swanny. I wonder if he can spot it.

Just wondering when the legitimate concerns and anxieties of Jews at all the bile being launched at them by Corbyn cultists will factor into your 'ridiculous hysteria'? Or are they all making it up in whatever world you live in?

Hitler's racial ideas did indeed have their antecedents, so he wasn't somehow special - he was just ripping off and bastardising already bad ideas (I've actually been in offices, with their rather creepy contents, once occupied by two of the most important and notorious precursors - Francis Galton at UCL and Charles Davenport at Cold Spring Harbour). One of the things that confuses the debate about anti-Jewish racism in the Labour party is its multiples sources. Some of it, astoundingly, is lifted straight from the Hitler playbook - and equally astoundingly there are plenty of examples of this. Here's Scott Nelson, for example - notice both his arms clasped around Corbyn in that familiar and creepily cultish way. He blathers on about the 'Jewish blood' of companies like M&S and Tesco causing deaths of workers - a classic Nazi trope. https://antisemitism.uk/scott-nelson-who-was-removed-from-the-labour-party-following-tweets-about-jewish-companies-tells-caa-he-can-apply-to-rejoin-whether-you-like-it-or-not/ Then there's the kind of Jew-hating engaged in fairly widely within Muslim communities, that's found its way into Labour because of its courting of Muslim electorates. Naz Shah's Facebook post content about relocating Jews from Israel to the US is quite typical of the things you hear (I have heard), even in 'polite' society. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44788629 Then there's what you might call political Jew hating. A classic and appalling example is the decision by the Birkenhead CLP - Frank Field's constituency party - to ban the Jewish Labour Movement from running equality and diversity workshops on anti-Semitism, on the grounds that JLM had 'possible links' with ISIS. https://twitter.com/jewishlabour/status/1035193153865826305?s=21 This is the kind of Jew-hating which also exhibits itself in Labour members hissing 'Zio' at Jewish party members in Oxford, and in the tidal wave of abuse hurled by the cult at Jewish members of parliament. And finally, there's that weird, rather genteel English Middle class anti-Semitism, in which Corbyn - born into just that world - exhibits when he drones on about the lack of 'Englishness' of Jews (whether it's some or all Jews is neither here nor there). Overlaid with this are two things. First, a relentless and cynical denialism that claims, effectively, that none of what individual Jews have complained about has any validity - thereby doubling down on the anti-Semitism itself (ie Jews as a species are making things up about Jezza's army and have no right to feel intimidated or bullied). And secondly, vanishingly few cultists seem to have any real first-hand experience of what they're talking about. I bet a large number of them have never so much as met a Palestinian. Yet out in the real world, the oppression of the Palestinians has many facets. It's not just the unjust and often violent actions of the Israeli government. As I've said before, a huge number of Palestinians (75% of Jordan's entire population, for example) now live outside Israel and the occupied territories. And they have had a terrible time. The latest serial abuser of Palestinians is Bashar Assad - Palestinian-baiting is a family tradition inherited from his father.. Here's the ever-impressive Peter Tatchell on the abuse, murder and looting carried out by Assad's forces in Yarmouk, a Palestinian refugee camp in Damascus, which, according to the UN, was 'transformed into a death camp' by the Assad regime: https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/budour-hassan/yarmouk-late-obituary-for-capital-of-palestinian-diaspora You won't find anyone in the Corbynista cult - nor even Corbyn himself - raising the issue of the oppression of Palestinians in the Arab world. It's simply airbrushed out of existence. It's just too inconvenient. And it doesn't fit the cultist narrative - that Jews alone are the cause of all evil. Until Labour expunges ALL these forms of anti-Jewish racism, the problem won't go away. Personally, I don't see that happening soon, if at all. Although not alone by any means, Labour from now on will be seen as Britain's foremost source of Jew hating.

The comparison is indeed wrong. But it also misses the point. It's not what these things are, but how they are perceived by racists. Non-England-supporting British-Pakistanis (and presumably British Indians and Sri Lankans) fail Tebbit's test of loyalty. Jews who don't get irony fail the Corbyn test of whether or not someone is truly English (no matter how long they've lived here). In both cases, people are being told that they are not properly English. And before anyone else objects that Jews are a religious group and not a race, and therefore can't be the victims of racism, try this little experiment of the imagination. Picture yourself as a German Jewish shopkeeper in Nazi Germany in 1938. You're wearing your yellow star, as required by law, and your shop has all its windows smashed out, as required by the Nazi mobs. Until now, you've been a 'good German': you fought heroically in the first world war, and you renounced your Judaism and even Germanified your surname. You have nothing that could be called faith in a Jewish god. Then one day, the SS turn up on your doorstep. They're about the cart you off to a death camp when you have a bright idea: all you need to do is tell them that you're actually not Jewish because you no longer believe in the religion. How do think that would turn out? National identity tests always end badly. For a start, they're not genuine tests. They are designed merely to stigmatise and to create the sense of an alien Other. The perfect breeding ground for the torch-burning, window-smashing mobs.

It is not anti-Semitic to criticise the actions and policies of the Israeli government - especially with the vicious Netanyahu in power. It is anti-Semitic to question the 'Englishness' of a Jew or some Jews. That's what Corbyn did - which makes him a rather old fashioned, straight down-the-line anti-Semite. As the Tebbit Test is to Pakistanis, so Corbyn's Irony Test is to Jews. You're making the same mistake as Corbyn makes - call it the virtue delusion, which states: If I am good, I can do no wrong. Of course, 'good' is self-defining. So when Corbyn and his cult whine on about how they can't possibly be anti-Semitic simply on the grounds that they are virtuously anti-racist, you might see how this might be a problem.

Or Tory party rules about new members and votes.

You didn't read the article, did you. Or if you did, you didn't understand it.

This is a myth. Even in Labour seats where voters voted Leave, the majority of LABOUR voters voted to remain. Overall, about two-thirds of Labour voters voted to remain, so chasing the leavers voting for the party would be a disastrous policy. There's a small chance even Corbyn understands this. The myth persists presumably because people forget that Labour voters are not the only voters in Labour constituencies. There are lots of Tories and kippers too. Here John Curtice on the subject: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-labours-brexit-dilemma-being-misunderstood/

I don't think Zionism is a parallel with nationalism - it IS a form of nationalism. And whatever the concerns about crises in Zionism (and I accept many of the arguments about this), the one historical fact that places it in the forefront of the vast majority of Jews' minds is the Holocaust. Before the rise of Hitler, European Jews, as well as Jews in the Middle East (of which there were a large number in Palestine long before 1948), Zionists were in a clear and very small minority. Jews were, by and large, assimilators. But the Nazis' genocide changed that for good. The fact that some variants of Zionism have now morphed into the extremism you hear from Netanyahu and the settlers doesn't alter the equally certain fact that Zionism - the right of Israel to exist - is a bedrock belief for the most liberal of Jews (obviously with a small number of exceptions), both in Israel and outside. Nationalism has long interested me. As an undergraduate I once got to talk with Ernest Gellner his idea that nationalism was historically a weak political force (and tied, in his theory, to modernisation), anad we discussed the outliers of Israeli and Palestinian nationalism (outliers because they polarise religious beliefs and because they lay claims to incredibly scarce land - the Israelis seeking land and security and the Palestinians land and state-viability). But this isn't really the issue with Corbyn. He's always fought a battle which in his mind is a good-vs-evil struggle between Zionism and Palestinian nationalism - screening out of his mind the religious dimension (including the murderous Islamism of Hamas). It's also 'ironic' that he fails to grasp the other 'history' of the Palestinians - their severe and repeated oppression by Arab states. Remember, Black September was formed as a response to actions by the Jordanian government, not the Israelis, and the first victim of Black September was the Jordanian prime minister. Palestinians have been second-class citizens in Jordan (where they make up 75% of the population), Lebanon (where Christian Arabs murdered them en masse at Sabra and Chatilla under the eyes of the Israeli army), Kuwait (where their treatment by was so bad that they cheered when Saddam invaded), and Syria (I've witnessed this first hand, but there's a long history to this). How much does Corbyn talk about this oppression? I don't think he ever has - although anyone is welcome to show me otherwise. He's only interested in those damned Jews. But as I've said, given the frightening scarcity of land being fought over, no solution whatsoever is possible without Israeli support, or indeed from British Jews and others who support the two-state solution. As Stephen Bush says: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/08/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-remarks-british-zionists-offensive Corbyn seems a million miles from grasping this - and it's no longer that he resembles a straight-up Jew hater (only approving of a few 'good Jews'); he actually is one. His cretinous fans can scream 'smear' all they like. But when their hero attracts the approving support of two of the most reptilian racists around - David Duke, the 'grand wizard' of the Ku Klux Klan, and Nick Griffin - then you'd think it might give them at least a moment's pause.

Christ almighty. You do know that Stalin and Hitler were different people. Right? Just in case... Stalin - communist (the Great Terror) Hitler - Nazi (Holocaust).