Manuel

A different argument. We didn't criminalise the work of the slaves to invalidate slavery, we made the trade illegal. If you ban the clothing you may only heap more difficulty on to the person wearing it, who is probably already oppressed, by criminalising them. Secondary you insult their religion/customs causing problems within the community. Better off tackling the reasons why people wear the veil head on. Not easy I know but preferable to a ban.

No on both counts. And if someone wants to attend interviews wearing a veil then they're going to struggle getting the job, granted. But that's their problem, and I'm not very sympathetic to it.

Freeing people by criminalising them? Seems like a contradiction. Better off attempting the difficult task of changing the views of those that think a veil is necessary. You may think it can't be done but we see through history how flexible and changeable the views of religious/cultures are based on the societies they live.

The judge ruled she must remove it to give evidence. These are small issues which can get ironed out. The main issues for me remain; a) What right does government have to decide who wears what? b) Why should society care? Whilst I find the veil objectionable, I can't see that it's society's job to ban it.

I can't agree with the logic of the security/identification issues which have repeatedly come up on this thread. They are so easily solvable with some basic rules regarding needing to identify yourself when taking exams/getting through customs/giving evidence etc etc. It's such a non-issue.

Fair point, but I think it would be worth a try for society to try and engage on this matter, and it hasn't really been attempted with any vigour as far as I can see. Better than to go down the French path. The vast majority of Muslims do not wear veils so I'm sure there must be a little wiggle room within Islam.

I don't think anybody here is going to admit to LIKING the veil or being particularly comfortable if someone in the vacinity was wearing one. But what people LIKE or are comfortable with is rather missing the point if you ask me. It's not all about you and what you are comfortable with it's about people having the freedom to do what they want. If you want to see fewer veils in the community then society shouldn't punish the women, it should have a word with their husbands or their religious leaders. Why is your wife/child wearing this garment in our society? Why is she being oppressed? We disagree with this opression. Perhaps society should focus its efforts with philosophical debate rather than bans.

Naked Rambler man gets locked up for not covering up, now women to be locked up for covering up too much. I don't think people should have the power to force others to wear fabric or choose what style is appropriate. Way outside of their remit. Having said that I think the hijab/veils are a symbol of the oppression of women and as such should be discouraged, but you do that through education and encouraging freedoms not by locking people up. It's a contradiction.

I think Cork would provide more for Osvaldo than Wanyama does, more creative going forward. More able to run with the ball. Can't believe he's not on the bench. Too good a player to leave out.

I imagine you're nearer 160 than 179.

Mrs Manuel got a delux footspa for xmas. It was less than 50 notes and she was very happy with it

Always enjoyed seeing Fabrice "style over substance" Fernandez on the pitch. Also thought Jermaine Wright was half decent, albeit rather unstylish, and didn't deserve half the criticism he got.

Personally, after WMD's, I don't see the public respecting that trust. Unless hard evidence of chemical attacks is made public, I just don't see the UK joining any military response, despite what the US might do or think. I don't think our country will stand for it.

Rolf Harris has been charged with nine counts of indecent assault and four of making indecent images of children.... 'Making' images of children? Are we talking 20 foot high paintings here?

I stumbled across this yesterday which might help clear up any misunderstandings.

From stuff I've seen on the telly he's on occasion appeared like someone who suffers a bit with his mental health. Reminds me a bit of Gazza.

Who was Adam hugging so tenderly at the start?

What I thought. Benefit of the doubt for Wanyama but I think Cork would have been better today. Wanyama is solid, good defensively but for me didn't create very much at all going forward. Surprising considering we were chasing the game for 80 odd minutes.

Osvaldo to score with one of those little chips that he seems to enjoy doing.

Interesting Man City's debt at £58m compared to Chelsea's at £878m. I'm guessing these figures don't tell the whole story.

Started reading it. Apols.

Phew! I felt sad when I started this thread, but now I feel quite relieved. Overall I think I'm feeling better than when I started it. Good job hoaxers!

Yes, this year all top three places probably less predictable than usual. Shame the Arse haven't really pushed much pre season, might have been nice to see them upset something.

Man Utd Man City Chelsea Newcastle Palace Hull Saints 16th

The shelf stackers in Waitrose wear shirts and ties which always looks nice, so we tend to go there.