Rasiak-9-

Do you think noisy support is a good thing? Would you rather it was quieter?

Good for you both (obviously I'm not directing criticism at the people who do actually sing and shout for the team) I personally think it has a lot to do with a lack of songs. Aside from OWTS there's basically been nothing in the home matches since promotion to the Premiership, even the Lambert song died a death and sounded crap with just 'nah-nah-nah-nah-nah...' in the last two seasons. (May be wrong but I genuinely don't remember hearing it ever being sung with the actual words in a home match) Likewise in this season, the only player songs that seem to exist are just ones that fit with Seven Nation Army, which sounds boring and repetitive and incredibly, incredibly stupid when we sing them for two players in the same game "Our Maya Yoshida/Sadio Mane" (The Jose Fonte song a notable exception even if we do mispronounce his name to get it in there). Long story short, against Chelsea there wasn't an awful lot from our fans aside from applause for tackles and blocks (obviously no complaints there) but very few songs from what seems to be an increasingly small group of supporters in the Itchen North/decreasingly vocal Northam. (I understand that when fans are in a nervous nailbiter it doesn't make for a rock-and-roll atmosphere quite the way it would if you're drawing with a club above you in the table and battering them as you push for a winner). The one exception was the 'Johnson's Paint Trophy, you'll never win that' which was a brilliant comeback to the frustrated Chelsea fans bragging about their bought-and-paid-for glory; just a shame it was only sung by a small contingent in the Itchen North. Long story short? Good support isn't vital but its nice to represent your home town with pride and passion. It sounds good, raises the profile of the club, intimidates opponents, generates love and loyalty from players and helps encourage good performances. As I say, we can do better, we have done better in recent years (and are still very decent at away games especially in London).

Seems like I've touched a nerve here. FWIW this is my 7th season as an STH in block 4. We can do better.

Sticks and stones darling, doesn't change anything about our lack of noise today. Players put blood, guts and sweat into that performance and our noise was woeful; great against Palace when 3-0 up, dreadful today. And people are actually criticising the fact that there are fans who want the support to be as loud and encouraging for the players as possible? Take a good, hard look at yourselves. I'm out, nothing more to add.

Quiet as church mice. 'Only here for the Chelsea' sounded entirely accurate. Embarrassing.

10 men backs to the wall giving absolutely everything against by far the best team in the league and that's the best we could come up with? Poor form.

Because, assuming he doesn't score against Chelsea, he will be on course for a total of 4 goals in the entire season as a wing-forward/second-striker. He cannot beat a man, he cannot hold the ball up, he cannot finish. If his name was Carlos Sanchez, Dkimbe Ogbonna or Yuki Takamoto he'd be slated by the fans as being another horrendously overpriced foreign signing and a colossal waste of money. Because he's Shane Long he's viewed by the granddads in our fanbase as a hard-worker and a 'good honest player', rather than the ineffective, talentless try-hard that he is.

As its pantomime season; oh yes they did! Admittedly it wasn't a mainstream view but there were a fair few posters putting quite a bit of weight behind the idea in an effort to shoehorn Long into the team.

Started coming under pressure as soon as we brought him on today. The ball just doesn't stick with him up front in the centre-forward position, regardless of the formation. Should put paid to the idea that we could ever conceivably drop Pelle.

This. I remember the WBA game clearly and couldn't agree more, apart from perhaps the fact that I don't even think Tadic would or could have played that pass. A back-to-goal, chipped, reverse pass played when you're on the wing 40-odd yards from goal just isn't something any of our current crop would even attempt. It was a piece of skill beyond the simple, Wanyama vs Leicester chipped ball over the top (although taking nothing away from that great bit of play from either VW/SL at all). I think the question of whether or not to persist with Ramirez is really just a point following on from the main dilemma of getting ourselves a decent player in the number 10 position. It doesn't really matter whether its Ramirez or someone else, but its a huge weakness in the squad that we don't really have a single player who can occupy that role.

This is the most annoying, typical comeback ever. Of course you don't fix what isn't broken and look to fix something that is. So in answer your question: no, of course not. So what?

He cost £12.5 million has two goals and we're almost halfway through the season. But he tries hard.

Edit: Wanyama vs Swansea to some extent and Pelle against Stoke, although both were of course against 10 men and in the latter example, it was a cup match with ET still to be played. Last season; Swansea away again, although that goal was a fluke. WBA away in the first game of the season I guess. But those really are the only examples (if you even count all of them) in the 2 and 1/2 seasons we've had in the Premiership. Its pretty poor.

When was the last team we won a match by scoring a winner in the last 5 or 10 minutes? And I'm not interested in equalising goals to get a draw when the opponents are obviously backs-to-the-wall defending a lead and when we have nothing to lose. That's a profoundly different scenario. I'm talking about being dissatisfied with a draw and having the mental strength to chase, and secure the win. I'm genuinely struggling to think of any. We don't DO late winners.

As he would be if we were to sign him. Pass. We need an attacking midfielder to play as a proper number 10. The kind of player we all hoped Ramirez would turn out to be. That's the main weapon we really lack, particularly off the bench.

I'd love to take him back and genuinely believe he's an absolutely class defender who's simply going through a rough patch; but after the way he left its not easy. Tbh it wouldn't surprise me if he stayed there and came good in the end.

*free kick or corner

We've had all this talk of Forster making the odd mistake and perhaps starting slowly, mixed in with praise for the odd good game (that more-or-less any keeper can have, including Gazzaniga) as well as the odd non-sequitur deflections talking about other players. The cold hard truth is that he just isn't very good. I'm not blaming him. I don't think he's playing within his ability or isn't trying his best. Its just that his best is very mediocre. We're in December now, he's had plenty of saveable shots go his way that he's let in; he's had plenty of chances to claim a ball in from a goal kick or corner. He's had plenty of chances to prove that the hesitation and mad charge off his line at Villa was a one-off. He just isn't that great. Boruc, the odd calamity aside, was (I think a superior), but at least an equal level of shotstopper and most certainly could communicate with the back four better and was infinitely, infinitely better in the air. Forster just isn't that good.

Guys, just to clarify, are we CERTAIN that Toby's out?

I must say it certainly would be rather strange if we did let him go in January considering we weren't willing to do so in the summer; plus of course it would make far more sense for him personally to stick around for a season and get a proper pre-season under his belt at a new club. Having said all that, selling him in January would 1) Give us more time to adapt to not having him in the side 2) Give us more time to see if we can buy a replacement and/or whether or not we're going to adjust our set-up having lost our best player 3) Allow us to get a higher price for him from clubs who're really desperate to buy a DMF/CMF 'quarterback' type player that he is 4) Do all of the above safe in the knowledge that survival is already secure and there's no possibility of anything particularly disastrous happening. £25Mn is the absolute bare minimum selling price and we should certainly approach the negotiating table starting at around about £35-£37Mn. I'd be surprised if he did go in January though I must say. If, hypothetically (because it won't happen), we did finish in the top-four this season and qualified for the CL group stages, I do think he'd stay.

I think Mane has shown he's got ability; he was superb against QPR and Stoke and clearly has a decent amount of pace and skill in his locker. Against Leicester as well he absolutely terrified De Laet. I'll admit that he's been disappointing recently but he's clearly become the new scapegoat considering the overreactions here. People saying we should have Isgrove ahead of him are literally akin to the people in Spring 2012 calling for Hammond ahead of Schneiderlin.

Ridiculous. He's been poor of late though, no worse than Tadic or Pelle mind. The whole front three have gone right off the boil pretty much since the Hull game when we were utterly toothless going forward and had our midfield/back-four/ability to keep a clean sheet to thank. That's now 16 goals in 13 matches if you discount the Sunderland 8-0 which, great result/performance though it was, is massively skewing everything. Some of our players at the back have put in performances that have thoroughly deserved to get them results.

I think I've spoken to you about this before, but what in the world is in a silly little internet username? There are posters here called Ali Dia and George Weah's Cousin, is that supposed to somehow discredit their opinions? I didn't realise that it mattered, had I known, I'd have called myself 'Matthew Le Tissier' and been right about everything apparently Anyway, red herrings aside, Davis does a job and is. a. good. player, but he does have his weaknesses and can most certainly be improved upon. Playing in the position that he does, with us using two of three central midfielders for dedicated, defensive roles, Steven Davis does have, as I say, a 'creative responsibility' insofar as if we're not scoring goals, he has to shoulder at least some of the blame as the 4th most advanced player of the 11 men on the pitch. There is no reason why he couldn't or shouldn't be arriving late into the box to chip in with a few more goals and when he does, the finish should be better (the backpass away to Liverpool at 1-1 being one example that springs to mind). Likewise, he has to be able to distribute the ball out wide far more quickly and accurately (something that Citeh's midfielders could do on Sunday with a frankly, terrifying consistency). Far too often the pass to Tadic and Mane have come far too late and often been behind them, slowing everything down and giving our opponents time to regroup, which completely nullifies Pelle's threat of arriving late into the box to meet a cross (which to be fair, we managed once against City (albeit with them down to 10 men). The Sunderland freak result (not a fluke, but certainly a freak result) has massively skewed our goalscoring potential. We've scored 16 in 12 in the other games, and that's against some (relatively speaking) fairly weak opponents. Now, I'm not calling for him to be dropped at all, having a player like him in the midfield does add a great deal and like I say, he's a good player who we sorely missed against Villa. However, what I am objecting to is the fact that on this forum, he has become, like Lambert last season, utterly impossible to criticise and a complete and utter blindspot in terms of people's analysis of our performances. Anyway! I guess we'll have to agree to differ overall. I just wanted to make the limits of my criticisms clear alongside the fact that I'm hardly slating the guy. But yeah, there you have it.

You couldn't make this stuff up could you? You ask whether or not he could play at a top 4/top 6 level and immediately you're told that the club and the fans ought to lower their expectations and ambitions precisely to accommodate the likes of triers like Steven Davis And like I say, I think he's a great little player who's served us very well, but you have to remember the guy is supposed to be a number 10 and as such, has creative responsibility. Every time he gets the ball in space running into the final third the final ball is either too slow or just plain old inaccurate (if he sees it at all). Its not too much to ask him to improve on this; or, if he's not good enough, to go out looking for an improvement like Clasie (which hopefully Koeman's doing at the moment) What I'm arguing against isn't so much him personally or as a player, but more the blind, blinkered defence of him (that we had last season with Lambert) whenever even the slightest criticism of him is brought up. No-one ends up able to look at the player or the side objectively if they pick their favourites. All I'm saying is simply that if we do want to kick on to the next level (if), then the likes of Steven Davis, good as they've been, are players upon whom we'll genuinely have to improve. That's the cold, hard, raw skinny I'm afraid gents. (oh, and you're not a top-four side until you finish there at the end of the season any more than Chelsea are already the Champions in November). Lets see if the likes of United, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal are circling likes vultures over the likes the Steven Davis as they will be with Schneiderlin, Wanyama and Clyne.

@Vectis Saint @Melmecian Do either of you think Steven Davis could play for a top-four team? Has any top-four team or big club shown an interest in him? If yes, please let me know. If not, please let me know at what level you believe he could play at? Top-six perhaps? Typical English fan syndrome. Mane gets written off after one bad game, Wanyama the same last season, fans were still rating Dean ****ing Hammond higher than Schneiderlin as late as 2012 and Gaston was always the scapegoat whenever he could be. However, Lambert, Cork, Davis and even Shane Long (though all are good players with decent attributes who've all made good contributions to the side in recent years) are utterly beyond criticism. Any criticism. Even suggesting that they could be improved upon or pointing out that they aren't good enough for a top six/top four team or that whilst they're decent, they do have weaknesses, seems to knaw at people who love a 'good, honest, British player!' And no, 90% of our staring XI isn't a victim of our own success. The entire back four as well as both central-midfielders could conceivably play for a top-four team. Even Tadic and Mane wouldn't look out of place at all for a Spurs or a Liverpool. Davis is a good lad and a great player, but he has his limits.