Over land and sea
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Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
https://www.premierleague.com/news/4243590 Updated squad list. From a quick skim we seem to have included Ollie Wright rather than Ben Reeves in the 25 even though he is out on loan. Reeves and loaned out quartet of Bazunu, Armstrong, Brerton Diaz and Juan all omitted. No real surprises in U21 list apart from Nico Lawrence’s continued exclusion. Loaned out players otherwise included. Jem Hewlett and Josh Potts (latter has signed for Ipswich) are omitted - I noticed the former had been removed from the OS recently so it seems he has moved on. One scholar also omitted so presumably has moved on - Nsemi Bassega. 25 Squad players (*Home grown) 1 Archer, Cameron Desmond* 2 Ayodele-Aribo, Joseph* 3 Bednarek, Jan 4 Bella-Kotchap, Armel 5 Bree, James Patrick* 6 Damascena Santos, Welington 7 Downes, Flynn* 8 Erlykke, Albert Gronbaek 9 Fraser, Ryan 10 Harwood-Bellis, Taylor* 11 Lallana, Adam* 12 Lumley, Joseph Patrick* 13 Manning, Ryan Phelim* 14 McCarthy, Alex Simon* 15 Onuachu, Ebere Paul 16 Ramsdale, Aaron* 17 Smallbone, William Anthony Patrick* 18 Stephens, Jack* 19 Stewart, Ross Cameron 20 Sugawara, Yukinari 21 Sulemana, Kamaldeen 22 Taylor, Charles James* 23 Walker-Peters, Kyle Leonardus* 24 Wood-Gordon, Nathan Dean Joshua* 25 Wright, Oliver* U21 players (Contract and Scholars) 1 Abu, Derrick 2 Adjei-Afriyie, Hansel 3 Akachukwu, Romeo 4 Amo-Ameyaw, Samuel Christian Osaze K O 5 Armitage, Will 6 Awe, Zachariah 7 Ballard, Dominic 8 Boot, Nathanael Joshua Asiimwe 9 Bragg, Cameron Roger 10 Charles, Brandon Davis 11 Charles, Shea Emmanuel 12 Daley, Aston Robert 13 Davis, Sonnie Kelvin 14 Dibling, Tyler-Jay 15 Dipepa, Baylee Jack 16 Dobson-Ventura, Tommy Eric 17 Edozie, Samuel Ikechukwu 18 Edwards, Ronnie Lee 19 Ehibhatiomhan, Princewill Omonefe 20 Espanha Fernandes, Mateus Goncalo 21 Frederick, Cameron Joseph 22 Fry, Max Joseph 23 Gathercole, Harry John 24 Goremusandu, Tinotenda Blessing 25 Jeffries, Josh David 26 Kayi Sanda, Joachim 27 Larios Lopez, Juan 28 Lett, Joshua Matthew 29 MacLeod, Rory Iain 30 Malak, Izzet Furkan 31 Martin, James Luke 32 Matsuki, Kuryu 33 McMullan, Korban James 34 McNamara, Joshua Anthony 35 Merry, William George 36 Mohamed, Adli Hatim Othman Husain Elkhidir 37 Moody, Dylan Lewis 38 Moore, Jayden James 39 Myers, Brook Cameron Reeco 40 Myers, Tevin Diego 41 Newman, Oliver Jacob 42 O'Brien-Whitmarsh, Joseph Paul 43 Ofuyaekpone-Shombe, Khiani Hrukti Toju 44 Okunola-Matthews, Abdulhalim Olarewaju Olasubomi 45 Oyekunle, Adetokunbo Adewale Ayomide 46 Payne, Lewis James 47 Prescott, Alfie Leo 48 Robinson, Jay Steven 49 Rohart-Brown, Thierry David 50 Sesay, Jonathan Moses Momoh 51 Sheaf, Benjamin Michael 52 Sillah Dibaga, Sufianu 53 Tabares, Samuel Ethan 54 Traore, Daouda 55 Udoh, Victor 56 Ugochukwu, Chimuanya Lesley 57 Umeh, Leo Chidiebere 58 Upstell, Henry William 59 Williams, Barnaby Joe -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
Yes all clubs are required to provide updated squad lists following closure of the transfer windows. I can’t find a specific deadline in the PL rules but I would imagine it would be today or tomorrow (Euro competitions deadline is 6 Feb). The PL usually publishes the revised lists a day or two after the submission deadline. We should have a full 25 man squad - see first team list in post 1. I imagine Ben Reeves will have to be included and the 5 loaned out over 21s omitted but we will see. -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
Confirmation of our 25 man squad and (almost) full list of U21 players. https://www.premierleague.com/news/4110099 The following are omitted from the 25 man squad Gavin Bazunu (injured) Ben Reeves (brought in to support youth players) Oli Wright (loaned out) Juan (loaned out) Nico Lawrence is omitted from the U21 list. Odd. There are two scholars on the list that have not been announced by the club (as far as I know): Oli Newman and Tinotenda Goremusandu 25 Squad players (*Home grown) 1 Archer, Cameron Desmond* 2 Armstrong, Adam James* 3 Ayodele-Aribo, Joseph* 4 Bednarek, Jan 5 Bella-Kotchap, Armel 6 Bree, James Patrick* 7 Brereton, Benjamin Anthony* 8 Cornet, Gnaly Albert Maxwel 9 Downes, Flynn* 10 Fraser, Ryan 11 Harwood-Bellis, Taylor* 12 Lallana, Adam* 13 Lumley, Joseph Patrick* 14 Manning, Ryan Phelim* 15 McCarthy, Alex Simon* 16 Onuachu, Ebere Paul 17 Ramsdale, Aaron* 18 Smallbone, William Anthony Patrick* 19 Stephens, Jack* 20 Stewart, Ross Cameron 21 Sugawara, Yukinari 22 Sulemana, Kamaldeen 23 Taylor, Charles James* 24 Walker-Peters, Kyle Leonardus* 25 Wood-Gordon, Nathan Dean Joshua* U21 players (Contract and Scholars) 1 Abu, Derrick 2 Adjei-Afriyie, Hansel 3 Akachukwu, Romeo 4 Amo-Ameyaw, Samuel Christian Osaze K O 5 Armitage, Will 6 Awe, Zachariah 7 Ballard, Dominic 8 Bassega, Nsemi Sostene 9 Boot, Nathanael Joshua Asiimwe 10 Bragg, Cameron Roger 11 Buck, Noel Arthur Coleman 12 Charles, Brandon Davis 13 Charles, Shea Emmanuel 14 Daley, Aston Robert 15 Davis, Sonnie Kelvin 16 Dibling, Tyler-Jay 17 Dipepa, Baylee Jack 18 Dobson-Ventura, Tommy Eric 19 Edozie, Samuel Ikechukwu 20 Edwards, Ronnie Lee 21 Ehibhatiomhan, Princewill Omonefe 22 Espanha Fernandes, Mateus Goncalo 23 Frederick, Cameron Joseph 24 Fry, Max Joseph 25 Gathercole, Harry John 26 Goremusandu, Tinotenda Blessing 27 Hewlett, Jeremiah James 28 Jeffries, Josh David 29 Larios Lopez, Juan 30 Lett, Joshua Matthew 31 MacLeod, Rory Iain 32 Martin, James Luke 33 Matsuki, Kuryu 34 McMullan, Korban James 35 McNamara, Joshua Anthony 36 Merry, William George 37 Mohamed, Adli Hatim Othman Husain Elkhidir 38 Moody, Dylan Lewis 39 Moore, Jayden James 40 Myers, Brook Cameron Reeco 41 Myers, Tevin Diego 42 Newman, Oliver Jacob 43 O'Brien-Whitmarsh, Joseph Paul 44 Ofuyaekpone-Shombe, Khiani Hrukti Toju 45 Okunola-Matthews, Abdulhalim Olarewaju Olasubomi 46 Oyekunle, Adetokunbo Adewale Ayomide 47 Payne, Lewis James 48 Pitts, Joshua Nathaniel 49 Prescott, Alfie Leo 50 Robinson, Jay Steven 51 Rohart-Brown, Thierry David 52 Sesay, Jonathan Moses Momoh 53 Sheaf, Benjamin Michael 54 Sillah Dibaga, Sufianu 55 Tabares, Samuel Ethan 56 Traore, Daouda 57 Ugochukwu, Chimuanya Lesley 58 Umeh, Leo Chidiebere 59 Upstell, Henry William 60 Williams, Barnaby Joe -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
Looks like this is our 25 man squad. It seems the EFL rule that any loan player (regardless of age) has to be included in the list doesn’t apply in the PL. McCarthy Walker-Peters Manning Downes Stephens Harwood-Bellis Aribo Smallbone Armstrong Lallana Stewart Lumley Bree Wood Sugawara Brereton Diaz Archer Sulemana Taylor Cornet Fraser Ramsdale Onuachu Bednarek Bella-Kotchap Not included Bazunu (injured) Reeves (brought in to support youth players) Wright (loaned out) Juan (loaned out) -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
We still need to do a little bit of work on the outgoings to get our over 21 squad down to the 25 man maximum. There are 30 players that qualify at the moment, with the next likely arrival (Fernandes) qualifying as an U21. Two of the 30 are out on loan and Ben Reeves wasn't added as a potential PL starter. Mara seems set to leave so, if that happens, that leaves just one more to go (or more if we add further new over 21 players). Bella-Kotchap, Alcaraz and Onuachu are the next most likely to be sold. I suppose Bazunu doesn't need to be named for the first half of the season given his long term injury status. McCarthy Walker-Peters Manning Downes Stephens Harwood-Bellis Aribo Smallbone Armstrong Lallana Stewart Lumley Bree Wood Sugawara Brereton Diaz Mara Archer Sulemana Taylor Alcaraz Lis Bazunu Onuachu Bednarek Ugochukwu (U21 but loaned in so has to be named in 25 man squad) Bella-Kotchap Reeves (brought in to support youth players) Wright (loaned out) Juan (loaned out) -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
7 were out of contract so not surprising that some will be leaving. That retained list published today says it was correct as of 18 May - so sounds like it is out of date already -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.eflservices.co.uk/04353ec0-24df-11ef-b4b6-4382bb2cf5f6.pdf Retained list published. Adams, McCarthy and Harwood-Bellis omitted for obvious reasons. No scholars released interestingly. Contract Abu, Derrick Alcaraz Duran, Carlos Jonas Amo-Ameyaw, Samuel Christian Osaze K O Armitage, Will Armstrong, Adam James Awe, Zachariah Ayodele-Aribo, Joseph Ballard, Dominic Bazunu, Gavin Bednarek, Jan Bella-Kotchap, Armel Boot, Nathanael Joshua Asiimwe Bragg, Cameron Roger Bree, James Patrick Caleta-Car, Duje Charles, Brandon Davis Charles, Shea Emmanuel Davis, Sonnie Kelvin Dibling, Tyler-Jay Dobson-Ventura, Tommy Eric Edozie, Samuel Ikechukwu Edwards, Milan Diamond Lazane Ehibhatiomhan, Princewill Omonefe Evangelista Silveira, Lyanco Hewlett, Jeremiah James Jeffries, Josh David Larios, Lopez Juan Lawrence, Nico Lett, Joshua Matthew Lis, Mateusz Lumley, Joseph Patrick Manning, Ryan Phelim Mara, Sekou McNamara, Joshua Anthony Meghoma, Jayden Ade Trindade Merry, William George Mohamed, Adli Hatim Othman Husain Moore, Jayden James O'Brien-Whitmarsh, Joseph Paul Onuachu, Ebere Paul Oyekunle, Adetokunbo Adewale Payne, Lewis James Perraud, Romain Paul Jean Michel Smallbone, William Anthony Patrick Stephens, Jack Stewart, Ross Cameron Sulemana, Kamaldeen Walker-Peters, Kyle Leonardus Williams, Barnaby Joe Wright, Oliver Scholars Andrews, Joseph Daniel Bailey, Isaac Joseph Daley, Aston Robert Edmondson, Tyler James Evans, Reggie James Fry, Max Joseph Hartness, Ethan Andre Thomas Martin, James Luke Myers, Tevin Diego Okunola-Matthews, Abdulhalim Olarewaju Pitts, Joshua Nathaniel Prescott, Alfie Leo Robinson, Jay Steven Sesay, Jonathan Moses Momoh Sheaf, Benjamin Michael Sillah, Dibaga Sufianu Stepien Iwumene, Emeka Alex Upstell, Henry William -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
Updated squad lists have been published on the EFL website https://www.efl.com/news/2024/february/08/efl-squad-list--season-2023-24/ Over 21s (*=home grown) Adams, Che Zach Everton Fred* Armstrong , Adam James* Armstrong, Stuart Ayodele-Aribo, Joseph* Bednarek, Jan Bree, James Patrick* Brooks, David Robert* Djalo, Ussumane ++ Downes, Flynn* Fraser, Ryan Harwood-Bellis, Taylor Jay* ++ Lumley, Joseph Patrick* Manning, Ryan Phelim* McCarthy, Alex Simon* Rothwell, Joseph Matthew* Smallbone, William Anthony Patrick* Stephens, Jack* Stewart, Ross Cameron Vokins, Jake* Walker-Peters, Kyle Leonardus* ++Although qualify as U21s, any loaned in player must be listed in the 25 man squad Under 21 Contract players Abu, Derrick Alcaraz Duran, Carlos Jonas Amo-Ameyaw, Samuel Christian Osaze K O Armitage, Will Awe, Zachariah Ballard, Dominic Bazunu, Gavin Boot, Nathanael Joshua Asiimwe Bragg, Cameron Roger Carson, Matthew Charles, Shea Emmanuel Davis, Sonnie Kelvin Dibling, Tyler-Jay Dobson-Ventura, Tommy Eric Edozie, Samuel Ikechukwu Edwards, Milan Diamond Lazane Ehibhatiomhan, Princewill Omonefe Hewlett, Jeremiah James Jeffries, Josh David Larios Lopez, Juan Lawrence, Nico Lett, Joshua Matthew Mara, Sekou McNamara, Joshua Anthony Meghoma, Jayden Ade Trindade Merry, William George Mohamed, Adli Hatim Othman Husain Elkhidir Moore, Jayden James O'Brien-Whitmarsh, Joseph Paul Payne, Lewis James Pearce, Luke Edward Andrew Simeu, Dynel Brown Kemgo Sulemana, Kamaldeen Williams, Barnaby Joe Wright, Oliver A few points to note: Six over 21s who are out on loan are omitted while seven under 21s who are on loan are listed Brandon Charles is omitted from the U21 list although he has signed a pro deal. Nick Oyakunle's new contract came too late for him to make it to the U21 list (although Jeffries is included) The under 21 list includes contracted players only - a further 19 scholars that have not yet signed pro deals are omitted (as well as Oyakunle/Brandon Charles). Interesting to see Aldi Mohamed listed - it seems he has signed a pro deal. He signed an extension to his scholarship last summer. -
Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
You're welcome. Yes I think he's in line to join as a 1st yeat scholar in the summer, which is why he's not listed on the OS either. Last year I added a list of those pre-scholars that had played for the U18s (or U21s) - I will do that when I get a moment. That list will form the bulk of next year's first year scholars -
https://www.efl.com/news/2023/september/07/efl-squad-list--season-2023-24/ Squad lists have been published by the EFL Ross Stewart is omitted - surely an error Harwood-Bellis qualifies as an U21 but has to be included in the 25 man squad because he is loaned in. Only professional (contracted) 21s are listed. Not sure why Brandon Charles and Tommy Dobson-Ventura are omitted - the latter perhaps because he signed only this week (though Djenepo is not included so the lists must have been prepared very recently). EFL - Squad List 2023/24 Southampton 1 Adams, Che Sac Everton Fred Yes 2 Armstrong , Adam James Yes 3 Armstrong, Stuart 4 Ayodele-Aribo, Joseph Yes 5 Bednarek, Jan 6 Bree, James Patrick Yes 7 Bycroft, Jack Thomas Yes 8 Downes, Flynn Yes 9 Fraser, Ryan 10 Harwood-Bellis, Taylor Jay Yes 11 Holgate, Mason Anthony Yes 12 Lancashire, Oliver Yes 13 Lumley, Joseph Patrick Yes 14 Manning, Ryan Phelim Yes 15 McCarthy, Alex Simon Yes 16 Onuachu, Ebere Paul 17 Smallbone, William Anthony Patrick Yes 18 Stephens, Jack Yes 19 Vokins, Jake Yes 20 Walker-Peters, Kyle Leonardus Yes Yes = home grown Southampton - Under 21 Contract players 1 Abu, Derrick 2 Alcaraz Duran, Carlos Jonas 3 Amo-Ameyaw, Samuel Christian Osaze K O 4 Armitage, Will 5 Awe, Zachariah 6 Ballard, Dominic 7 Bazunu, Gavin 8 Bragg, Cameron Roger 9 Carson, Matthew 10 Charles, Shea Emmanuel 11 Davis, Sonnie Kelvin 12 Dibling, Tyler-Jay 13 Doyle, Kamari Olivier 14 Edozie, Samuel Ikechukwu 15 Edwards, Milan Diamond Lazane 16 Ehibhatiomhan, Princewill Omonefe 17 Finnigan, Ryan James 18 Hewlett, Jeremiah James 19 Larios Lopez, Juan 20 Lawrence, Nico 21 Lett, Joshua Matthew 22 Mara, Sekou 23 McNamara, Joshua Anthony 24 Meghoma, Jayden Ade Trindade 25 Merry, William George 26 Payne, Lewis James 27 Pearce, Luke Edward Andrew 28 Simeu, Dynel Brown Kemgo 29 Small, Thierry 30 Sulemana, Kamaldeen 31 Wright, Oliver
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We are comfortably within the limits, both for not exceeding 25 and for having at least 8 home grown players. Here is an updated version of the list that was submitted to the PL in February - cyan indicates a full season loan and pink(?) indicates short term loan. So it looks like we need to list 19, more than a dozen of which are home grown (and even those 19 players includes 2 U21 squad players - Lancashire and Vokins). 25 Squad players (*Home grown) 1. Adams, Che Zach Everton Fred* 2. Armstrong, Adam James* 3. Armstrong, Stuart 4. Ayodele-Aribo, Joseph* 5. Bednarek, Jan 6. Bella-Kotchap, Armel 7. Bree, James Patrick* 8. Bycroft, Jack Thomas* 9. Ćaleta-Car, Duje 10. Downes, Flynn* 11. Evangelista Silveira Neves Vojnovic, Lyanco 12. Fraser, Ryan 13. Holgate, Mason Antony* 14. Lancashire, Oliver* 15. Lis, Mateusz 16. Lumley, Joseph Patrick* 17. McCarthy, Alex Simon* 18. Manning, Ryan Phelim* 19. Onuachu,Ebere Paul 20. Perraud, Romain Paul Jean Michel 21. Smallbone, William Anthony Patrick* 22. Stephens, Jack* 23. Stewart, Ross 24. Vokins, Jake* 25. Walker-Peters, Kyle Leonardus* U21 players (Contracts and Scholars) 1. Abu, Derrick 2. Alcaraz Duran, Carlos Jonas 3. Amo-Ameyaw, Samuel Christian Osaze K O 4. Andrews, Joseph Daniel 5. Armitage, Will 6. Awe, Zachariah 7. Bailey, Isaac Joseph 8. Ballard, Dominic 9. Bazunu, Gavin 10. Boot, Nathaniel Joshua Asiimwe 11. Bragg, Cameron Roger 12. Carson, Matthew 13. Charles, Brandon Davis 14. Charles, Shea Emmanuel 15. Daley, Aston 16. Davis, Sonnie Kelvin 17. Dibaga, Sufianu Sillah 18. Dibling, Tyler-Jay 19. Dobson-Ventura, Tommy 20. Doyle, Kamari Olivier 21. Edmondson, Tyler James 22. Edozie, Samuel Ikechukwu 23. Edwards, Milan Diamond Lazane 24. Ehibhatiomhan, Princewill Omonefe 25. Evans, Reggie James 26. Finnigan, Ryan James 27. Fry, Max 28. Hartness, Ethan Andre Thomas 29. Harwood-Bellis, Taylor Jay 30. Hewlett, Jeremiah James 31. Jeffries, Josh David 32. Larios Lopez, Juan 33. Lawrence, Nico 34. Lett, Joshua Matthew 35. McNamara, Joshua Antony 36. Mara, Sékou 37. Martin, James 38. Meghoma Jayden Ade Trindade 39. Merry, William George 40. Mohamed, Adli Hatim Othman Husain Elkhidir 41. Moore, Jayden 42. Myers, Tevin 43. Okonola-Matthews, Abdulhalim 44. Oyekunle. Nicholas 45. Payne, Lewis James 46. Pearce, Luke Edward Andrew 47. Pitts, Josh 48. Prescott, Alfie Leo 49. Robinson, Jay 50. Sesay, Moses 51. Sheaf, Ben 52. Simeu, Dynel Brown Kemgo 53. Small, Thierry 54. Squires, Joshua David 55. Stepien Iwumene, Emeka Alex 56. Sulemana, Kamaldeen 57. Upstell, Henry 58. Williams, Barnaby 59 Wright, Oliver
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I note from https://www.footballsquads.co.uk/eng/2023-2024/flcham/southam.htm that additional squad numbers appear to have been allocated to many of the U21s and even a couple of the U18s. The site is usually reliable though I have no idea where it got its information from. I’m also not sure why so many numbers are needed given we’re not playing in the Football League Trophy this season. I'm also not sure why some U21s have a number but many others don't. Generally speaking if you had a number last year you get one this year (Lett, Pearce and Simeu aside). Ignoring those out on loan, the U21s without a number are generally new signings (Josh McNamara, Derrick Abu, Zach Awe), on extended scholarship (Adli Mohamed, Josh Squires, Alex Iwumene), were out on loan last season (e.g. Dynel Simeu, Luke Pearce). Also Josh Lett. 1 Alex McCarthy 2 Kyle Walker-Peters 3 Ryan Manning 4 Flynn Downes 5 Jack Stephens 6 Mason Holgate 7 Joe Aribo 8 9 Adam Armstrong 10 Che Adams 11 Ross Stewart 12 Paul Onuachu (out on season loan) 13 Joe Lumley 14 James Bree 15 Romain Perraud (out on season loan) 16 Will Smallbone 17 Stuart Armstrong 18 Sékou Mara 19 Moussa Djénépo Joe Rothwell 20 Kamaldeen Sulemana 21 Taylor Harwood-Bellis 22 Carlos Alcaraz (out on loan) 23 Samuel Edozie 24 Shea Charles 25 Lyanco (out on season loan) 26 Ryan Fraser 27 Samuel Amo-Ameyaw 28 Juan Larios 29 Jayden Meghoma 30 Jack Bycroft 31 Gavin Bazunu 32 Kami Doyle 33 Tyler Dibling 34 Dominic Ballard (out on season loan) 35 Jan Bednarek 36 Ollie Lancashire David Brooks 37 Armel Bella-Kotchap (out on season loan) 38 Diamond Edwards 39 Matt Carson 40 Cam Bragg 41 Ryan Finnigan 42 Will Merry 43 Jem Hewlett 44 Jake Vokins 45 46 Jay Robinson 47 Oliver Wright (out on season loan) 48 Sonnie Davis 49 Will Armitage 50 Nathanael Boot 51 Brandon Charles 52 Princewill Ehibhatiomhan
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https://twitter.com/saintsprogs/status/1684600920665976832?s=46&t=qwGUamtR9d2G1EM0qeOCsw Assuming the link works, these were the squad numbers printed on the programme for last weekend’s friendly at St Mary’s. I would imagine they will be the ones we will announce sometime later this week
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Anyone at the game notice what shirt number Bycroft had? I ask because a couple of websites suggest he was number 1 which seems highly unlikely but might add fuel to rumours that McCarthy is off
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Keeping Track of the Contracts 2024-25
Over land and sea replied to Over land and sea's topic in The Saints
Overnight update. Most of the loaned out B team players added and all of the released players removed. Just Lis and Pearce missing now