hypochondriac

I wasn't talking about candidates that are equally good. In a scenario where you have two candidates who are equally competent then there may be other factors to take into account. I'm talking specifically about if lesser black players were promoted over better white players due to their race. That would also be the case if lesser white players were promoted over superior black players due to their race. If certain South African players felt that this was happening and that wasn't the case then they are wrong clearly.

Again, my point was about hiring practices in general and you clearly know more about ATC hiring practices than I do but even if you meet rigorous standards (I know standards in other jobs have been watered down somewhat for some categories but I'm not saying that's the case here) it shouldn't be the case that someone with a higher competence for the job is passed over in favour of someone else due to their skin colour. According to the person I posted about earlier he got 100% on the test. Granted this was seemingly a while ago but hypothetically if that person was overlooked due to his race in favour of a black candidate who got 80% then that's not right. That's not to say that the person who is hired is incompetent, in my hypothetical scenario they still would have got a passing mark. Using another example if I wanted an airline fighter pilot I may have five outstanding candidates but I want the absolute best one for the job. That might involve looking at thing like temperament but it's ultimately going to come down to the practical skill involved in the role. All five might be more than capable of doing a job but there's clearly going to be an advantage to choosing the best person. Choosing the third or fourth best because they happen to be black isn't the way to go in my opinion.

I don't understand the logic. Removing prejudice from hiring decisions that may have prevented the best players from playing because they were black is clearly a good thing, as is providing opportunities for black players to show their superior talent. That's not the same as demoting superior white players and promoting lesser black players in the hope that some better black players will come through eventually. Football has never taken that approach and we have loads of incredible black talents who are strengthened by the fact that they have arrived at the top table on merit due to their own superior abilities.

Like I said, I don't know the specifics of air traffic control but I would say it is measured in quite a similar way in terms of the requirements of doing the job well. With regards your last point, are you suggesting that the diverse individuals in the rugby team are there because they are less competent than alternatives but were chosen anyway due to their skin colour?

Are you suggesting there is no evidence of some companies moving away from a merit based system to one where the most competent person is not always hired for the job?

My point was a general one rather than talking about specifics in air traffic control as I have little knowledge of that. If you have a football team and you have a choice of two strikers to sign with identical characteristics except that one has scored 20 goals the previous season and the other has scored 5 and you choose the latter because they happen to be Asian, there's a fairly high risk that you've made your team weaker than they otherwise would have been and increased the likelihood that they will perform below where they could have performed all other things being equal. If you want to recruit in order to foster a better work environment, I would explore why a DEI policy has had that affect and look at how I could replicate that environment without blatant discrimination based on something like race or gender.

Worth pointing out we still don't know in this case if that has any relevance but the general point is 100% correct.

It's not a non point if less competent people have got a job due to a DEI initiative and a more competent person is overlooked because the risk would then be that the role is performed less well or not as well as it could be if a hiring decision is made on merit. That's really not a controversial position to take.

Agreed but I never claimed it did, nor did I suggest that nepotism or discrimination were the only two available options here.

That really depends how they are forced encouraged or legislated against. I'm not talking about any case in particular but it would be completely unfair for the best qualified candidate to lose out on a job because of a characteristic they cannot change, have no control over and has no bearing on their ability to do the job. That's the case if they are disabled, black, white, fat, thin, Arab etc.

My point is that DEI initiatives lead to a lowering of standards and the risk that less competent people are employed rather than the best person for the job. I never said someone incompetent got a job.

Of course not. There's horrendous examples of discrimination throughout history. That doesn't mean you look to discriminate in the opposite direction now to try to make up for historic injustice. No one should face discrimination due to an immutable characteristic that has no bearing on their ability to do a job. That was wrong fifty years ago as much as it is wrong today.

Equity means treating people unequally now to try to correct a perceived wrong which is usually undefined and normally historic. Substantive equality has the word equality in it but other than that it's a perversion of the language because it's a nonsense term with no proper definition. It's the opposite of actual equality.

What part of "the idea that standards have been lowered in order to cater to DEI initiatives isn't such an outlandish proposition" Made you think that's what I said?

So as I said nothing to do with equality. I'd already mentioned that I thought Trump's statement was ill judged and stupid. Happy to repeat that again if it makes you happy.

The E in DEI stands for equity and has nothing to do with equality.

I don't think anyone should have an issue with allowing those with disabilities or disadvantages from having interviews or giving them opportunities where their disability or disadvantage has no impact on their job. That certainly hasn't been how those policies have been interpreted in some cases though. Plenty of examples of different ethnicities or sexualities being prioritised over others and some seeking equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Damn I miss that guy. He should be great for them. If they keep Rohl next year I'd give them a chance of promotion.

I understand that and it also doesn't seem appropriate to start bringing this up in the immediate aftermath of a disaster but the idea that standards have been lowered in order to cater to DEI initiatives isn't such an outlandish proposition. I haven't seen a suggestion yet that the air traffic controller was at fault but I would certainly disagree with DEI initiatives favouring individuals based on immutable characteristics.

Given his subsequent laughing emojis and the tone of his previous posts that's clearly not the case.

Unfortunately I'm not sure we can blame the club for failing to sign anyone of note this window. Who on earth would want to come here at the moment? Much better off keeping our powder dry for next year.

Just uncalled for really. Thankfully most people on here aren't like that.

The last relegation came on the back of ridiculous January spending that we haven't had this year. Selling Sulemana, ABK, Aribo and Onuachu albeit for smallish fees and then maybe one of THB or Fernandes should be more than enough, particularly because Dibling will be pure profit from an FFP perspective.

How can you possibly tell from that screenshot? We have no idea how much money is involved. Worth remembering that we were incredibly lucky that Dibling decided to come back after he left the first time.

That's not the only reason. A newly relegated club like us is never going to turn down the amount of money we will likely get for him. It may allow us to hold on to others like THB or Fernandes.