Sheaf Saint

You state that with a great deal of authority and confidence. What do you know that we don't? Have you got a mole in the Brawn team?

If Jenson scores 5 more points than Rubens at Suzuka next week then he will take the title with two races left. Personally, although I will be really happy to see him win it, I would rather it went down to the last race. Having said that, if he wins the title with races to spare then maybe the pressure that seems to have been getting to him in qualifying lately will be lifted off him and he can finish the season in relaxed and confident mood rather than hanging on by the skin of his teeth.

FAO skintsaint: George W Bush and George H W Bush are two different people. Hope this helps.

So if that really is the case Bigtoe, please could you tell us what measures the leaders/organisers of the EDL are taking to root out and remove the violent, racist members who have joined up and taken part in your demonstrations?

Not much chance of that on a street circuit surrounded by concrete walls.

I think that's a very good summary. The worst thing ever is being stuck in a room full of people who have had some when you haven't, and suddenly you become very aware of the fact that all your mates have just turned into the most annoying w*nkers on earth. I have done it myself on a few occasions but it never really appealed to me so, thankfully, I never developed a taste for it. I can see how plenty of people do though. I would guess that at least 75% of my mates have at least tried it, but I can think of certain people who move in completely different circles who would tell you that none of their friends ever have as far as they are aware, so it really does depend on what kind of social life you lead.

Why do so many people just blindly accept what they are told without questioning it? Whether your 'information' comes from the Mail, the Express or any other source, it is still a load of scare-mongering bullsh*t. Have you ever bothered to check the facts on this yourself? I'm guessing not because otherwise you would realise that this whole idea about waves and waves of illegal asylum seekers arriving here every day is massively exaggerated by those with their own agenda. Have a look for yourself... http://www.defend-asylum.org/ Here are some useful facts you will find on that website... But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good rant eh?

Well yeah, but seeing as the vast majority of intelligent, reasonable people in this country can see throught the veneer of 'anti-extremism' and see the EDL for what they really are - a bunch of cowardly, racist, ball-brained thugs - I can't really see that that will ever happen, can you? Just why do we need anti-extremism demonstrations anyway? Everybody knows that extremism is something that needs to be combated, but demonstrations through Birmingham aren't going to change the extremists' views are they - quite the opposite I would say. Everybody agrees that child-abuse is an evil that needs to be removed from society, but do we see skinheaded thugs going on demonstrations to protest about it? No, of course we don't. Anybody who believes the EDL's agenda is purely benign and focused on rooting out just the extremists is living in cloud cuckooland IMO. Wanting to defend one's country from extremists and terrorists is one thing; lending support to this pathetic band of nationalistic thugs is quite another.

erm, wrong actually... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7269790.stm http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press-releases/points-based-migration http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/employers/points/whatisthepointsbasedsystem/ It never cease to amaze me how ignorant people actually are about this subject. There seems to be far too many people ready to believe every piece of undiluted crap spouted by the Daily Mail and the Express.

The White Tree Project - Cloudland. Possibly the most beautiful album I have heard this century.

And how do you suppose they are going to do that? If you think that a small band of meatheaded thugs like the EDL are going to raise the attention of this government enough to force them to change their policies then you are seriously mistaken.

StuRomseySaint in getting his facts wrong again shocker. And no Stu, nobody is in the least bit surprised that you joined the group. People who are so ignorant that they believe we still have the death penalty for treason in this country are exactly the kind of empty-skulled morons these people want to recruit.

The plot thickens.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8250436.stm

I'm currently reading 13 Things That Don't Make Sense by Michael Brooks. A very interesting and informative account of the scientific community's attempts, and subsequent failure, to understand certain things like dark matter, cold fusion, life itself etc... Very well written by the author who, despite having a PhD in quantum physics, is able to convey a lot of the more intricate aspects of the book in simple enough terms for most people to understand.

But that's just the point Delldays, they haven't. Recent polls indicate that more than half the population of the USA now believe it was a government cover up. That's quite a few million people. Are they all just 'nutjobs'? Oh yeah Draganov. I can 'disprove' every world event that has ever taken place and show with 100% certainty that the world is in fact made of jelly and that we are all living manifestations of the subconcious mind of a giant octopus. Clearly you haven't paid any atention to anything I have posted, otherwise you would not post ridiculous statements like this. If you want a genuine answer, the fact is I don't know anything about the case of the great train robbery. It happened before I was born and it has never interested me enough to want to do further research on it. Even if I had, what relevance does it have to this discussion? With regard to 9/11 - I haven't at any point pretended to know the full story. Of course I don't. If you go back to my post #105 on this thread you will see what I said.... The point being that the Bush administration did everything in their power to make sure that nobody ever conducted an independent, evidence-based analysis that would sift through the available facts and use expert opinions to draw conclusions that would stand up to critical scrutiny. What the 9/11 Commission did, and this is backed up by testimony of people who worked with them, was to base their so-called investigation on the premise that they already knew who was responsible for the attacks, and they came up with a final report which confirmed this view while conveniently ingoring masses of evidence to the contrary which has left hundreds of unanswered questions, which nobody will dare answer. The NIST investigation into the collapse of the WTC towers was carried out on exactly the same principle. Since their report was published, a large number of people from the scientific community (architects, structural engineers etc...) have raised some serious questions about the content of the report and have issued NIST with a request for corrcection on numerous occasions. The most glaring one being centred around the fact that the chairman of the investigation claimed to have no knowledge of molten metal found at ground zero in the weeks after the collapse, which is surely just bizarre. How can they possibly claim to have carried out a proper scientific investigation when they are not even in possession of some of the most basic facts of the matter? There are even testimonies from former NIST employees confirming that the computer simulations which were used to confirm their findings were fudged, and that certain aspects of the investigators' work was completely disregarded in the final report. NIST has refused to respond to these requests for correction, and has declined all offers for any of their spokesmen to enter into a public debate with the 'truthers' about their findings. If they are so sure that their report is correct and true, why are they so scared of debating it publically? Is their argument so paper-thin that it wouldn't stand up to debate? Or are they under immense political pressure to stand firm? Either way, it doesn't look good on them as a scientific organisation.

Let's just say you're right about the flash, and I can't possibly claim to know what caused it. How do you explain the appendage on the fuselage?

Just like Baj says, it's pretty clear that at 52 seconds they freeze the video before the impact. I don't see how this constitutes 'proof' that the video was photoshopped.

Well, they say the only true way to prove a theory is to actively try and disprove it. That's what I have just done and I came across this, and it does seem that the evidence for flight 77 hitting the pentagon does seem to fit... even so, there are still too many aspects of it that just don't add up, like the maneuvre that Hani Hanjour pulled off prior to hitting it, and the govt's insistence that they did not know about a plane heading towards the pentagon despite evidence to the contrary. Whatever did happen, we have not been told the whole truth.

I'm not aligning myself with anything. I'm just raising the questions that nobody who defends the official story seems able to answer. Sorry if the source website for that is too dubious for you. How about instead. If I knew the answer to that, I would probably not be debating this subject on a football messageboard.

I resent that remark thank you. Read back through all of my previous post and you will see that I clearly posted that I have looked at a lot of information on both sides of the argument, and that I am of the mind that there has been a massive cover up, because it seems to me to be the only explanation for the gaping holes in the official story. But hey, just label me a conspiracy theorist and discredit anything I have said if it makes you feel better. Like I said. I don't know. I have read pages and pages of testimonies from NY firefighters and police officers who claim that they witnessed explosions that were totally consistent with demolition 'rings' around the towers just before they collapsed. I have read and watched interviews with survivors who claim they witnessed a massive explosion in the basement of the South tower before the first plane even hit but who's testimony was rejected by the 9/11 commission. Why? There were traces of thermite found in the debris. Why? There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the second plane that hit wasn't even a United Airlines 757, but a military plane. Plenty of people have testified to this and the seems to back it up. Again, this was dismissed. Why? These are important questions that were completely ignored by the 9/11 commission. How can they claim to have carried out a complete and proper investigation when they have not even taken into account some extremely important evidence? You claim that I am ignoring all logic, but by dismissing these questions, you are turning your back on logic yourself. On the flipside of that, how come nobody photographed/filmed a 757 hitting the Pentagon. There are something like 80 CCTV cameras in various buildings all around the pentagon, and in the days following 9/11 they were seized by the FBI and never released. If just one of those tapes shows flight 77 hitting the pentagon, then why have they not released it and put the conspiracy theory to bed once and for all? Why have they not released pictures of the wreckage with identification proving that it was flight 77? Why was there no wreckage on the lawn? Why is it that plenty of people have testified that what they saw hitting the pentagon was not a 757? How could an inexperienced pilot who, according to his instructor, could barely handle a single-engined Cessna fly straight over the pentagon and then execute an extremely complex 330 degree downward spiral before levelling off at just a few feet above ground level at 500mph and hit the ground floor of the pentagon, in a section that just happened to be empty for renovation anyway, without hitting the ground first? Why would they even do this when it would have been so much easier to just point the plane in a straight line from the direction they came in from? Once again, these are very serious points which need addressing but have been ignored by the 9/11 commission. Why? Has no other plane ever crashed nose-first then? Again, where is the wreckage? why has the public never been allowed to see pictures of the recovered debris? Why has the data from the flight recorder never been released? How is it that passengers on flight 93 apparently had lengthy conversations with their families on mobile phones when, by the FBI's own admission, mobile phone technology of the time would have made this virtually impossible? I actually agree with you to a point. I don't believe that they planned it all themselves because Bush and his cronies simply do not have the intellect to cover it up properly without leaving a smoking gun. It is far more likely that they had advanced knowledge of the plans and allowed them to happen, and maybe even added some additional security to make sure it was successful in order to gain public support for their war plans in the middle east. It wouldn't be the first time a US govt has done something like that. But there are still far too many other aspects that just don't make any sense at all, like the finding of one of the hijackers' passports in the WTC debris; the catastrophic failure of the FAA/NEADS security protocols which should have seen flights 11 and 175 intercepted in plenty of time to stop them from reaching their targets; the changing of the names on the list of hijackers by the FBI; the claim by Donald Rumsfeld that he was unaware that a plane was heading towards the Pentagon which has proven to be a lie; the testimony that a USAF E-4B was seen flying over New York on the morning of 9/11; and much, much more. I guess we'll never get the answers.

I read it Verbal. All it states is that 'The FBI is confident it has positively identified the 19 hijackers'. But I have also read a lot on the subject of 9/11 and it is widely known that when the FBI realised that there was too much evidence available that some of the people on their original list were still alive, they simply replaced those people with other names. This was after that BBC article was published. Look it up for yourself. That may be the case for some, but you cannot apply that logic to everybody who believes we have not been told the whole truth about it. I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist. when I become aware of these kinds of claims, I like to look at all the evidence I can find and make up my own mind. For instance, when I first heard about the faked moon landings theory a few years ago, I decided to do some research on it, and I came to the conclusion that it was a load of ******** and all the evidence points to the fact that the moon landings were real. I have done a lot of reading on the subject of 9/11, and the only thing I can say with 100% certainty is that the final report by the 9/11 commission, along with the NIST report into the collapse of the twin towers and their subsequent report on the collapse of WTC7 (which to my mind is one of the most suspicious aspects of the whole saga), are nothing but works of fiction which were intended to cover up the truth rather than expose it. You only have to do a little bit of research into Philip Zelikow - the chairman of the 9/11 commission - to see that his appointment guaranteed that it would not be a fair and independent investigation. You may have had first hand experience of some extremist, paranoid people. But to label everybody who questions the evidence and makes up their own mind, rather than those who blindly accept what they are spoon-fed by people with an agenda of their own (IMO it is these people that should be ridiculed, not the so-called 'conspiracy theorists') as 'loonies' is just totally absurd. There is no 'smoking gun' which proves it was a govt cover up. There probably never will be one. But you only have to whether or not he had advance knowledge of the attacks to know that there is something seriously wrong with his tone and his body language. I have read all of the claims of the 'truthers' and I have read all of the responses of those who wish to discredit the 'truthers'. The way I see it is this - every single aspect of the truthers' case could be explained away as circumstantial or co-incidence on their own. But when you add them all together, and there are dozens, if not hundreds of major flaws and discrepancies in the official story, the chances of co-incidence become infinitessimaly small. Were the WTC towers brought down with demolition? I really don't know. The NIST report seems to have conveniently ignored anything that might have remotely indicated this as being a possible cause for the collapse. Their 'investigation' seems to have started out on the premise that they already knew what caused it. Did a Boeing 757 crash into the Pentagon? I have to say that from everything I have seen and read, the evidence against seems to far outweigh the evidence for in this case. Did flight 93 crash in Shanksville? No, almost certainly not. The aftermath shows no aircraft wreckage whatsoever and the local coroner has been quoted as saying that he only stayed on the scene for 10 minutes before leaving again, because there were no bodies to recover. Has there been a cover up by the Bush administration? Absolutely without question, yes.

You mean in the video allegedly found in a house in Afghanistan by US troops which shows a man who clearly doesn't even look like OBL claiming responsibility? Have a look on the FBI most wanted website - there is no mention whatsoever of his involvement in 9/11 (or any of the other terrorists on the wanted page for that matter) because, by their own admission, the FBI don't have any evidence against him. even **** Cheney has openly admitted that the US government has never claimed that Bin Laden was responsible... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2xRLiRqb8M

What - the fact that 19 arabs, mostly of Saudi origin, of whom six are confirmed as being still alive, didn't fly the planes into those buildings? The fact that the one man blamed most for the attacks by the US - the man who has never actually owned up to being responsible and is not actually on the FBI's most wanted list due to complete lack of evidence against him; the man who was staying at a US hospital in Dubai a short time before sept 11th 2001, has close business links to the Bush family and was actually trained by the CIA to fight against the soviets in the 80s - may or may not have been in Afghanistan at the time; and if he was, he was allowed to escape? Sorry Delldays. I appreciate that you have played an active role in operations, and I genuinely don't want to turn this thread away from being a memorial for the horrors that the world witnessed that day, but to claim that 9/11 is the reason we are still in Afghanistan, just like the dodgy intelligence which justified the invasion of Iraq, is a complete and utter lie on behalf of all those involved.

I liked the p1sstake version that someone came up with for Italia '90 when Andy Roxburgh was their manager... We're on the march with Andy's army We're going to do our usual tricks And we'll shake them up in Rome When we catch the first plane home Like we did in eighty-two and eighty-six. Genius! :rolleyes::smt118

Pink floyd concerned about sales figures??? WTF!? They haven't released an album for over 15 years and they have sold millions upon millions of copies worldwide. They are basically rolling in a massive pit of money, and yet they are concerned about the small dent that spotify might put in their sales? Truly unbelievable.