Sheaf Saint

Here's to my great grandfather, Chief Engineer John Ledingham, who was killed when his merchant navy convoy crossing the north Atlantic was attacked by a pack of German U-boats in 1942; and to his brother (my great, great uncle???) Captain James Ledingham who was killed in action in Broembeck, Belgium in 1917. Neither body was ever found.

Yep, this is my gripe and, so it would seem, Button's too. I'm not completely naive to believe that there are no team orders, as such, going on all the time. But Ferrari with that radio message were basically sticking two fingers up to the rules in a way that would have made Pompey shudder. Really? Perhaps you could refresh my memory in this area then. Since joining McLaren, Hamilton's team-mates have been Alonso, Kovaleinen and Button. Alonso would NEVER have moved over for him, Heikki was never quick enough to be in front of him in the first place and Button has never been asked to make way. So maybe you could tell me exactly when, during Hamilton's McLaren career, the team have radioed his team-mate during a race and ordered him to move over. Yes I agree, but that doesn't detract from what Button has said in his interview. Just because 'they all do it' doesn't make it OK in my book.

Agreed, as shown by the fact that the Brawn did not have the pace advantage in the latter half of the season. But he made sure that he capitalised when he did have the advantage, made no mistakes and got the points on the board; something which the Red Bulls have utterly failed to do this season. Their car is by far and away the fastest on the grid, yet neither of their drivers leads the championship. I still don't see how you can compare the two scenarios. There was nothing illegal whatsoever about Brawn's design. The other teams only whinged about it because they didn't think of it themselves. The FIA ruled that it was perfectly legal, ergo Brawn did not break any rules. What Ferrari did at Hockenheim was a blatant abuse of the rules, reinforced by the fact that they were fined by the FIA for it, and it left a sour taste for a lot of people; especially anybody who had put money on Massa to win.

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6496227/Jense-Team-orders-could-taint-Alonso-title Have to say I agree with him really. While I do not doubt Alonso's ability as a driver, he comes across as a spoiled brat who throws his toys out of the pram when things don't go his way. He couldn't pass Massa fair and square at Hockenheim so he got the team to order him to let him past instead. If this is ultimately the difference between him winning the title or not then I will be very disappointed.

Did they ever prove that the locals were actually hiding arms though?

You make a very valid point Phil, but how can the coalition or any other educated western societies ever claim the moral high ground over these groups if we are so easily influenced to lower ourselves to their level? In so doing, we are effectively saying that we despise their agenda and their methods, but we are not averse to using their own tactics ourselves to assert our authority over them. That, to me, is a display of double standards.

Biggadee biggadee bong!

I have definitely become a lot more interested in history as I have got older, although I also don't really know the specific dates or anything; I don't personally believe that the technicalities of the subject are important. For me it is all about understanding the essence and learning the lessons of our historical mistakes. For anyone interested in much, much older history, going back to the dawn of civilisation even, there is a very interesting-looking series starting tomorrow night on BBC2. This is the kind of history I have become fascinated with over recent years as it gives an insight into why human society is the way it is now, even if it is wildly different from its humble beginnings.

Indeed, like vegetarians who wear leather shoes.

The words 'torture' and 'civilised' are mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as civilised torture; it is barbaric no matter how you dress it up.

I think you misunderstand my point. I am advocating that torture should never be used in the first place, so the scenario you have described would never arise . However, IF that information has already been extracted, possibly by the intelligence agencies of another country, then it would be utterly foolish to ignore the possibility that it is correct as the consequences of failing to act on information already gained would be far too great, IMO.

In answer to the question: yes they should. I think all of us on here hoped that we could get away with it on a technicality, but deep down we knew that, morally, we deserved the -10. So do Charlton, and if they get away with it on a technicality then we should lodge an official complaint to the FL about it.

Research has shown that torture is a completely unreliable method of extracting information and I do not believe it should ever be used.

http://newsthump.com/2010/11/09/george-w-bush-still-convinced-waterboarding-is-fancy-water-skiing/

Beth Gibbons - Portishead Lou Rhodes - Lamb Both have a truly haunting quality that give me goosebumps each and every time I hear them.

Definitely should have got a red card yesterday. Obnoxious little ****

It's waaaaay too late for that. Christmas was hijacked by capitalism a long, long time ago. Did you know that Santa Claus was traditionally depicted as wearing a green suit until Coca-Cola came along and re-branded him for their own purposes? Christmas as it is in the 21st century is an utter abomination. The old pagan festival of Yule used to be all about celebrating the returning of the light after the winter solstice. Then it was hijacked by Christianity with some load of old tosh about an immaculate conception of the son of God (despite the fact that most historians believe that Jesus was actually born in june). Now it has been raped by corporations who see it purely as a way to make profit, and people lap it up. I would much rather go back to the old Pagan ways myself. Gather your friends and family on winter solstice and eat, drink and be merry.

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

well they finally caved in after I got the BVRLA involved and they are currently processing my refund payment along with a 'goodwill gesture' payment. Happy days.

Well I am surprised. That's not a typical Daily Heil article is it? Reminds me of something I came across this morning... http://newsarse.com/2010/11/04/al-qaeda-leadership-facing-vote-of-no-confidence/

Agreed. It remains to be seen just who the Republicans put up against Obama in the full elections in two years time.

Chesterfield. It's in Derbyshire and the inhabitants consider themselves as Midlanders rather than Northerners. But head 10 miles north to Sheffield and you are in no doubt that you're 'ooop north'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/9147379.stm OK then Harry, be a man and follow through on your threat - please.

In which case I apologise unreservedly. It was a callous remark, made without any consideration for the feelings of others who may have read it, and I feel shame and remorse for any distress, pain, suffering or death which my thoughtless actions may have caused.