Johnny Bognor

Again, in an idealistic world, I can see where you are coming from, but the reality of the situation is that it does not, can not or will not work as the very essence of human nature prevents it from doing so. Therefore a system of wealth creation, which can then be distributed (to those who need or deserve it) is far more workable. As distasteful as politics and politiancs are, the middle ground of politics has the best chance of achieving this.

I see where you are coming from on the logical conclusion to that train of thought. Of course I don't think we should forget about foreign aid, hospices, and start euthanasia - compassion is a very human trait, and one that distinguishes us from the other species of the planet but at the end of the day we can't stop the force of nature. My father was born and raised in Bury into a very working class family (my grandfather was a painter & decorator). My father's brother was very active in the labour party movement (every year we now have the JB in the Blue Corner Vs Uncle David in the red corner to debate the merits of politics). But my father worked his backside off, left the northwest in his early twenties in order to better himself and had an outstanding career in the IT industry - you could say "the boy done good". I was fortunate to have the upbringing that I did - some would say lucky - but others would say deserved (off of the back of my fathers hard work). I can draw very simple comparisons between my father and my uncle - one who was happy to sit around whingeing and whining (which he still does to this day), whilst the other took it upon himself to make a better life - so in terms of my inspiration, I look at my father with immense respect and admiration, whilst I pity my uncle - who could have had the same, but preferred to sit back and whinge. For me, that is the difference between the politics of envy / idleness compared to the politics of industrious self help.

The humane side of my character sees where you are coming from, and the disdvantaged should be helped. But ultimately, nature itself is about the survival of the fittest - it is essentially the dynamics of evolution and the basis/foundation of all living beings. Life ultimately is not fair for any species inhabiting this planet. Therefore, it is probably best not to be bitter about it and do the best you can to enjoy it as much as you can.

I believe until relatively recently that you were a fully paid up member....is that not support? ...and even if you do not support them, you are very quick to defend them.... a bit too quick for someone who has been so betrayed. So if you want to move them back to the left, they will once again be unelectable - you may as well just vote lib dem if you want to vote for an unelectable party. The great sadness for me, after 12 years of Labour, was that it hasn't proved that socialism doesn't work - they abandoned socialism and moved to the centre. Had they stayed at the left, then once and for all, the argument would have been settled - i.e. Socialism does not and will never work (P.S., but it still pays relatively well, though)

Well it would cut expense claims by 30% :-)

The expenses I put up relate to a number of different areas, however the last table was total expenses including travel, housing, staff and entertainment. So BTF is right to point out the distances travelled relating to travel expenses, however the total expenses covers everything. On another note, I find it mildly amusing that the socialists on here go some way to distance themselves from the Labour party - the party they voted for. They purport that they have been betrayed, so I am confused as to why their anger is not directed at those who betrayed them, rather than their old enemy. This leads me to two possible reasons: 1) To draw attention away from the guilt they feel 2) The need to distance themselves to have any modicum of socialist credentials

.....who lives across the street in a fully expensed home - you know, the one with the fully expensed policeman outside the front - number 10 or something.....and when he isn't there, he his jetting around trying to save (sorry, screw) the world (or is that himself) - at our expense! From my sources, DC claims about £20k in his 2nd home allowance while GB claims £17k for his constuency home. Bear in mind that the cost of living in your neck of the woods or Notting Hill is far more than the cost of living in Scotland. So in your mind, it is OK for Labour MPs to claim more for travel as they may live further away, but not OK for Tories to claim more in housing allowance because they happen to live in more expensive areas? ....that's the problem with Socialism - double standards! (but there is still good money to earnt from socialism)

In all seriousness, yes it is sad and is more a reflection on human nature....and it is this that ensures that socialism or communism could and never would work. It is an idealistic way of living, but in reality all of those principled politicians seem to forget for who and why they were elected. The socialists amoungst us truly rejoiced in 1997 when the evil nasty right wing tories were kicked into touch. They must all be feeling really cheated when what they voted for isn't much better than what came before (from an idealogy perspective). There are many on here that are clearly not represented politically as they claim to be socialist and at the same time distance themselves from the party they voted for and supported. I wonder who they will vote for at the next election........

I have now changed my mind. Socialism appeared to be a great money making opportunity, but I thought last night whether or not extreme left wing politics would prove to be more lucrative. The more extreme, the more money to be made? Then I found this...... http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000014/001499.htm Stalin, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Mao Tse Tug, Ho Chi Minh were all "Communists" that in real life were probably among the richest people on earth... So I have had a rethink and have come up with a new slogan. Go Labour! Sod Socialism because there is far more to be made from Communism!

Duncan, Mr Alan (Con) = £141,771 244th on the list .... and one for the 'real socialists', Dennis Skinner claimed £67,891 (2nd from bottom on the list)....... ........only to be beaten by a Tory on £44,551 (Holloway, Mr Adam (Con)). So even the most socialist of socialists still claims more than a Tory. Your honour, the case for the prosecution is now closed. Mods you can lock this thread now (BTW I'll offer forum members a 10% dicsount on my book when it's published)

Who's your MP, I will let you know how much they've claimed?

I start with this as my opening shot.... http://timesbusiness.typepad.com/money_weblog/2009/03/mps-10-most-outrageous-expense-claims.html#more Here is a top 10 of the most claimed in staffing and office costs: Gardiner, Barry (Lab) = £123,852 Malik, Mr Shahid (Lab) = £121,086 Rogerson, Dan (LD) = £116,381 Gwynne, Andrew (Lab) = £116,060 Johnson, Ms Diana R. (Lab) = £116,005 Herbert, Mr Nick (Con) = £115,984 Newmark, Mr Brooks (Con) = £115,380 Reed, Mr Jamie (Lab) = £115,160 McCarthy, Kerry (Lab) = £114,936 Clark, Paul (Lab) = £114,313 Hmmm.....Nick and Brooks haven't really got the hang of this expense claiming. Here is the top 10 of car expenses claimed: Anderson, Janet (Lab) = £13,851 Robertson, Mr Laurence (Con) = £12,178 O'Brien, Mr Mike (Lab) = £10,564 Sheerman, Mr Barry (Lab/Co-op) = £8,802 Hoyle, Mr Lindsay (Lab) = £8,790 Vaz, Rt Hon Keith (Lab) = £8,644 Connarty, Michael (Lab) = £8,520 Barron, Rt Hon Kevin (Lab) = £8,509 Tami, Mark (Lab) = £8,420 Cook, Frank (Lab) = £8,382 Naughty Laurence, he should really join his socialist comrades!!! Here is the top 10 claims on rail travel....... Milburn, Rt Hon Alan (Lab) = £15,785 Howarth, Rt Hon George (Lab) = £14,842 Simon, Mr Siôn (Lab) = £14,176 Kaufman, Rt Hon Sir Gerald (Lab) = £13,394 Grogan, Mr John (Lab) = £13,242 Browning, Angela (Con) = £13,169 Miliband, Rt Hon Edward (Lab) = £12,579 Gwynne, Andrew (Lab) = £12,460 Smith, Geraldine (Lab) = £12,419 Taylor, David (Lab/Co-op) = £12,210 Angela really hasn't got the hang of this yet. Here are the top 10 spenders on air travel...... MacNeil, Mr Angus (SNP) = £30,560 Carmichael, Mr Alistair (LD) = £24,721 Joyce, Eric (Lab) = £22,689 Doran, Mr Frank (Lab) = £20,903 Thurso, John (LD) = £18,241 Sarwar, Mr Mohammad (Lab) = £17,295 Alexander, Danny (LD) = £16,516 Bruce, Rt Hon Malcolm (LD) = £16,403 Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (LD) = £14,690 Salmond, Rt Hon Alex (SNP) = £14,441 Here is the top 10, based on staff members travel allowances Sarwar, Mr Mohammad (Lab) = £4,500 Begg, Miss Anne (Lab) = £4,418 Bruce, Rt Hon Malcolm (LD) = £4,179 Robertson, Angus (SNP) = £4,119 Salmond, Rt Hon Alex (SNP) = £3,821 McKenna, Rosemary (Lab) = £3,301 Battle, Rt Hon John (Lab) = £3,180 Etherington, Bill (Lab) = £3,100 Winterton, Rt Hon Rosie (Lab) = £2,980 Roy, Mr Frank (Lab)£2,937 The top 10 claimants for IT (Note this doesn't include pay per view movies) Byrne, Mr Liam (Lab) = £2,545 Blunt, Mr Crispin (Con) = £2,523 Tipping, Paddy (Lab) = £2,445 McGuire, Mrs Anne (Lab) = £1,883 Lidington, Mr David (Con) = £1,804 Follett, Barbara (Lab) = £1,788 May, Rt Hon Theresa (Con) = £1,767 Williams, Stephen (LD) = £1,739 Turner, Dr Desmond (Lab) = £1,719 Michael, Rt Hon Alun (Lab/Co-op) = £1,685 There seems to be a bit of a trend here. Do you want me to go on? Oh OK then, here is a list of the top 10 expense claimers in 2008: Malik Shahid / Labour = £185,421 Byrne Liam / Labour = £178,116 Ryan Joan / Labour = £173,691 Norris Dan / Labour = £172,733 Farron Tim / Lib Dem = £172,327 Doran Frank / Labour = £171,836 MacNeil Angus / SNP = £169,971 Levitt Tom / Labour = £168,660 Salmond Alex / SNP = £166,814 Mundell David / Conservative = £166,598 I really feel David has let the side down. THis research has convinced me that Socialism really does pay Go Labour! Socialism Really Does Pay so much better than Centre Right Politics! (Don't forget, How I profited from Socialism and how it created wealth (for me) will be available from good book stores in about 10 years time)

To be fair, I am very tempted. This socialism lark pays really well. What's Blair earning these days - somewhere in the region of £12m? Prescott managed to run 2x 4.2 litre jags even with high fuel prices and it now transpires that Jacqui Smiths expense claims total £157k in the last year. So here's my plan.... I will bang on about fairness and equality, not forgetting re-distribution of wealth - I won't bother with how that wealth will be created as this doesn't matter to your average socialist. Then I will buy a red rose to wear on my jacket. I will then get pictured on some protest about something or other. Then stand for an MP. Bingo! Go Labour! Socialism Really Does Pay! (There you go, I've even changed my strapline as part of my conversion) (Oh and when I've finished my profiteering from this amazing idea, you can have a copy of "JB How I profited from Socialism and how it created wealth (for me)", signed of course)

We should dump her, and her comrades Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

Was this the second home that she never went to, expensed by the taxpayer, or her other home which she wasn't at because she thought she had better stay in her expensed house for a while? :-) As for Tony Benn, avoiding inheritence tax, he is almost the grand father of the socialists - total hypocrite, just like the rest. I am not saying the tories don't do these things, they just don't preach in a righteous fashion like the socialists do. The current govt may not be socialist anymore, but there were at one point, which makes them the most hypocitcal of all. HTH Oh sorry, forgot.... Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

I agree, but you wouldn't expect it from the socialists with their high and mighty moral highground values. This current lot did stand on an anti-sleaze ticket. Granted, the thought of it is pretty appalling and I doubt that even Jacqui Smith could justify the tax payer funding the viewing of that movie - having said that it would probably be classed as a horror movie.

Hey Fuengirola, Look what I found...... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487528/Exposed-How-Alistair-Darling-Tony-Benn-exploited-death-tax-loophole.html and as we're talking about moving money to avoid tax, the guy responsible does this..... Lord Myners hid his money in tax haven http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5993185.ece ...meanwhile we're all paying for this..... Adult movies put on expenses http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5995499.ece These guys just get better and better! Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

...and therein lies the problem. Those in the labour party prior to being elected would be described as socialists - which is why the socialists rejoiced when they got into power. However, once they had a taste of being at the top, they threw out their socialist principles and well and truly got their snouts in the trough, with their me me me attitude. A good example of this was Prescott, the champion of the left, who is impartial to a game or two of croquet! (not to mention the number of Labour cabinet ministers who send their kids to private school and are taking the mick with their expense claims). Ultimately, human nature takes over and it is every man for himself. I mean, look at this load of old guff - http://www.labour.org.uk/home The entire front page of their website is devoted to attacking the tories. If they put half as much effort into running the country, than lining their pockets or attacking the tories, perhaps we wouldn't be in this mess. They are in power and CAN do something, but instead they focus on the tories - I thought they were "just getting on with the job". From a business perspective: Business Rates will be going up at a rate of 5% The Business Rate Revaluation has been brought forward to this year - which means only one thing Employers NI will be going up next year (yes, that's right - a tax on employment) Can any of the socialists on here explain how this is going to help the wealth creators (small and medium sized businesses), who will dig us out of this mess? My view is, it is no surprise, when the Chancellor for the last 10 years thought there would be no more boom and bust. If he honestly thought that, he should be sectioned and locked away for his (and our) safety. If he didn't truly believe this, then he is a liar or completely negligent and must take full responsibility for his part in the credit based consumer spending boom that he encouraged. In fact using that phrase, he gave people false confidence and has personally contributed to the mess we are now in. Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

That's nearly as good as Wayne Kerr Electronics http://www.waynekerrtest.com/

Not to mention, they have and are increasing the gap between rich and poor.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Sorry, can't resist......Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

I find it quite ironic that the Brazilian President is the leader of the most prominent left wing party in Brazil. Bloody Socialist Racists - they are the worst kind - Hypocrites as well as predjudiced.

I think we should carry on with Brown. He's wrecked this country and now he is going around trying to wreck the world (under the guise of saving it). Let him continue, I say, because if the rest of the world buys into his bull****, then at least they will be brought down to our level. Socialism Rocks!

That's right, on Black Wednesday, only the UK were the only ones to suffer from high German interest rates and money speculators (including George Soros). The biggest mistake was signing up to the ERM in the first place - a stupid leftie socialist idea. The Tories did spend the gold reserves to stay in the system that day, so what was Clown's excuse to virtually GIVE away our Gold Reserves during a "Boom"? Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

The decline in coal output, in percentages: 11 years of Thatcher: 33% 11 years before Thatcher: 45% 11 years after Thatcher (Major and Blair): 72% 11 years of New Labour (Blair and Brown): 64% I suggest you read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_7950000/newsid_7952300/7952388.stm In the last 44 years, the coal industry declined LESS during her tenure including the last ten years when the darlings of the miners (Is that Lord Miners?) were running it into the ground and LESS than the previous tenures of the lefties who also did more than their fair share to run it into the ground. As for the other apologists, the lefties all try to blame the financiers, and they are in a large way responsible (especially if you abdicate the politicians responsibility to keep them in check), but at the end of the day, Gordon Clown is having to borrow billions (yes, that is borrow as in WE will have to pay it back) becuase HE failed to put some money by for a rainy day. So whoever's fault it is, Clown's failures as a Chancellor means that we will be paying for his legacy for years to come. Go Labour! Socialism Rocks!

Well while we are on the subject, I blame the bankers (wasn't Lowe at Morgan Grenfell and Deutsche Bank), the speculators (WH Ireland and London International Financial Futures Exchange), pen pushers and the regulators. So whilst I don't blame him specifically, solely and personally for the global economic slump, he and his ilk have a lot to answer for. ...... meanwhile, the real wealth creators are having to pay the price.