Johnny Bognor

Exactly. Add in the fact that Ryanair and Easyjet are the fastest growing airlines means that they are giving their customers what they want. It is all very well for Hamilton Saint to go on about improving the lot for all workers, but whilst socialists like yourself put your hard earned money into companies like Ryanair and Easyjet, the workers will continue to be exploited, whilst the workers at BA are having to accept cutbacks. Therefore I blame the socialists that use low cost airlines. :smt008

At what cost though? At the cost of destroying the company they work for? If they do that there won't be any jobs for them to work in. I made the same arguments about the RM on a previous thread a few months ago. In their effort to better themselves, they were actually destroying their job security. Madness, utter madness

I clean their bloody toilets FFS I am as much against bad management as I am the unions. Take Rover for example, what them ****s did was criminal. Bleed it dry, toss the carcus to one side and clear a couple of million quid. People like that should be locked up. Bankers - they can go **** themselves as *****s like that gambled and screwed our economy. My business has had to fight this recession as much as anyone's, thanks to them ******s. I am not for people making money regardless, unless they are genuinely creating wealth. If not, they are crooks and should be treated so. In my world, bad management and militant unions would be eliminated.

RM is a PLC, albeit all the shares are owned by the Govt. It was nearly partly privatised in the summer, but this was put off due to the recession. It is not technically private at the moment, as you say, but it will be part-privatised shortly - it is only a matter of time - that's if it is not sold off lock stock and barrel to DHL. I know you can be a bit of a communist FS, but don't you see the irony in all this? You have cleared off to sunnier climates to better yourself / earnings / lifestyle. Isn't that a bit me-me-me and selfish? Isn't that a typical Tory trait to think about oneself and bugger the rest? What about the comrades you left behind? At least I'm paying my tax here, helping to support the welfare state and doing my bit for Britain.

Did you watch the Panorama Ryan Air documentary? They have taken bottled water away. I assume they can still have tap water. Bottled water is almost standard issue equipment for Cabin Crew. No doubt BA crew have a choice between still and sparkling.

Not at all - I even highlighted the issue of dehydration (which is far worse at altitude compared with those of us that work on terra firma). I was merely highlighting that many in the airline industry are treated like crap, whilst BA have it very very very cushy, hence what is their problem? Had BA been paid as low of the rest of the industry and treated as many of them are, then I could be more sympathetic. Staying in 5* hotels for three nights, whilst Easyjet crew get a 1 hour break before coming home from the same destination, doesn't constitute being hard done by in my book.

The "we will not be dictated to" was a reference (taken from the Union Handbook of Propaganda) to demonstrate the attitude of many a union activist. It's all about attitude at the end of the day. Here, the company directors (myself included) clean the toilets at the weekend on a roster (don't worry, we can afford a cleaner) and we do it for 2 reasons: 1) it demonstrates that we are prepared to get our hands dirty when required. 2) Means that from a moral perspective, we have no problem in asking any our staff to do ANYTHING. It really works and is part of our philosophy that we should not ask of anyone, something we are not prepared to do ourselves. Our work does involve putting in more than required and going beyond the call of duty and we never have to ask anyone to do so - they just do it, because that is the type of people they are. We hire people on their attitude every time and have honed our techniques to weed out those that are not of the right mindset. When I retire, I will write a book about it. As for your last comment, the private sector (both bosses and workers) create the wealth and the government squanders it.

I agree. I think the centre needs to move 2 or 3 squares to the left and down which would make it more relevant to the UK. It is interesting to note that moderators of the forum are more authoritarian when compared to other posters.

I think that is absolutely spot on. I think that the Trade Union movement was a necessity 30, 40, 50 years ago and you could argue that the trade union movement shaped much of the current employment legislation in this country and the EU. However, you cannot so much as fart in front of an employee without being in contravention of one thing or another. Therefore, for me, unions running companies and excerising their power through striking is for a bygone age. Trade Unions do still serve a purpose on an individual level, providing support to employees and helping with representation at disciplinaries and the like and I have no problem with this. It is the "we will not be dictated to" mentality that gets my goat. If any member of my staff comes out with crap like that, they will be drop kicked before you can say negotiated settlement.

What if the government paid him twice as much as other submariners doing the same job....would he strike then?

To be fair, I would probably ring the council and the dept that deals with parking offences and log it with them. http://www.colchester.gov.uk/Info_page_two_pic_2_det.asp?art_id=9316&sec_id=2697

Sorry Ponty, there is a fine line between Fascism and Communism I guess it is because you would expect most pro-lowes / pro-plc types to be in the top right quadrant. The fact that you all share the same space as 19C, means he is either a class traitor or you're just a bunch of luvvies.

Is that a plug for the climate change lobby? I always say that you can't beat a 60 Wotte bulb Perhaps Mark "sparky" Hughes would say different.

Just had a mcflurry in Chichester - very cold. No snow though.

Now all we need is the Royal Mail to go on strike to prevent the second ballot.

I wonder if the judge is going away for Christmas

Do you wholeheartedly trust Gadaffi? Everything he did was well in the past. Saddam was not to be trusted and his continuous mind games with the UN / West did little to win over his foes. Granted, that is no excuse for war and in hindsight Hans Blix (Sp) should have been given more time. Blair and Brown (I include him as he helped finance the operation) were clever enough to play on our fears...and this is wrong. But at the end of the day, Saddam could have played ball and avoided the situation????? His political **** swinging was in itself a provacation as he failed to meet the terms of UN resolutions against him. I think it is a case that both sides were wrong to some extent To be fair, the middle east region has been unstable for millenia. As it is Christmas, just reference the bible and you can see that the Jews were under Roman occupation, they hated the samaritans and the like. Even Saladin had to conquer the muslim states in order to organise them into an organised force to take on the Christians in the Holy Lands. Fast forward a few years and our involvement over the last century leaves a lot to be desired. If my memory serves me correctly, 9-11 occured before the invasion of Iraq and whilst the war has clearly made things worse, our meddlings in the affairs over the centuries gives them enough reason to hate us with or without the invasion.

...and I didn't have you down as a duck shooting luvvie.

I recently came back from Munich and saw a few out there. I didn't break into song, but I must admit that I did have a smug grin on my face for a few minutes. A bit like this.....:smt040

Now that Nineteen Canteen has provided his results (see the duck below), the politcal map has been revised. If this doesn't rile the lefties on here, I don't know what will.

I don't agree with everything you say, but I am happy to back you on points 1-3. Point 1 He made no secret as to his beef with Israel and he has form in terms of lobbing scud missiles into civilian areas of Israel. Although there may be no direct threat to the west, having a go at Israel is certainly an indirect military threat. Otherwise, why did he fire scuds into Israel? As the US (and therefore the west) support the state of Israel, posing a threat to Israel is posing a threat to the west as 'we' would/could get dragged into a major conflict. On the Oil front, he certainly posed a threat - Oil probably has one of the biggest impacts on the western economies and so he certainly had us by the goolies in this respect - that is why he invaded Kuwait afterall. Why are the Royal Navy patrolling the coast off Somalia? Somali pirates do not pose a military threat to the UK, do they? Point 2 He did invade a sovereign country unprovoked (Kuwait), fight a prolonged war with Iran and lob scud missiles at Israel. To describe this as a "moderate threat" is the understatement of the century. I think the intent was there, although he didn't have the capability (as we were told by our beloved labour leader). Point 3 I certainly think genocide is worse than war - certainly from a moral perspective, even if the end result is the same. In war you fight an army who are armed, trained and whose job it is to fight back. That army can always surrender if it is not up to it. War is the result of the failure of politics. Genocide is the politics of deliberately killing unarmed civilians and hence there is a major distinction between the two. To lump them in together is like saying that someone who kills someone in self defence is no better than a murderer - the end result is the same (i.e. someone dies) but there is a clear distinction between the motives for killing. This is the same with War vs Genocide - the motives for the war are to win it, the motives for genocide is to kill people. Big difference IMO

I would suggest that at times they are a hybrid of nurses (giving first aid), doctors (my mrs has defibbed a few passengers in her time), firefighters and policeman (dealing with drunken ****s). At the end of the day, at 35,000ft you are responsible for the safety of everyone and anything can happen......and you have to deal with it. Shop assistants, cinema staff and waiters don't have to be away from home a lot (sometimes when they don't want to be) or have to adjust to time zones, work overnight on long shifts and have to deal with jet lag. Take my mrs on a HKG. Get up at 5.00am arrive at LGW at 7.00am. Transfer to LHR and check in at 9.00am. Prepare flight, board passengers for a 11.00am take off which lasts 16 hours. Disembark, get through the airport and arrive at the hotel 6am (GMT). I make that 24 hours door to door. 2 days later she comes home, so I make that 48 hours work in 4 days with 2 nights of no sleep. That is not easy. They do have a lot of time off, but when they do work, they do work bloody hard and have to put up with a lot of stress. Some crew are fortunate enough to earn twice as much as others, so it that must make it a bit more bearable

I've been married to a Virgin Cabin Services Manager for the last 15 years, so I know what I am talking about. I recognise many of the trials and tribulations highlighted by Duncan in an earlier post, but they are no different to the problems faced by other cabin crew in other airlines. BA crew are extremely well paid compared to their counterparts and so as far as I am concerned, they are living on cloud cuckoo land. Whoever the Chief Exec of BA is, they have a very difficult task. BA are being attacked on short haul by the low cost airlines and attacked on the long haul by the likes of Virgin. They are caught in the middle and competition is fierce. Throw in the worst recession since WW2 and change is essential. Either the BA crew roll with it or they will lose their cushy jobs faster than you can say "negotiated settlement". Strike action may work in the public sector monopolies, but in a competitive marketplace, it just hands business on a plate to competitors. From my perspective, the strike does me a favour. All airlines have been on a sticky wicket of late and Virgin are selling seats faster than tescos are selling mince pies. Return economy tickets to New York over xmas week are selling for £2.5k each - this can only be good for me as Virgin's coffers are swelling and hence my mrs job security and prospects are enhanced. Perhaps I should thank BA crew for their selfless efforts in helping other British airlines in these very difficult times.

Pay your staff more than double of all your competitors and they're still not happy - what is he to do? ...and their history of taking unpaid holiday goes back over decades http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/1997/06/inbrief/uk9706137n.htm ......and it was all Bob Ayling's fault back then too. Willie might be a ****, but there is a common theme running here. Here is an extract from the Independent...... In the mid-80s, union members tended to gather for mass meetings by bike, on public transport or crammed into clapped-out Cortina Mk3s. But surveying the car park shortly before the result of the strike ballot and Yuletide-wrecking industrial action was announced, it became clear the preferred form of travel for the revolutionary ranks of British Airways cabin crew appears to be the Land Rover Discovery or the Renault Scenic. One of the latter vehicles carried a poster with a picture of BA's chief executive, Willie Walsh, with the slogan "Willie's out ... of his mind, of his tree, of his depth, of his job very soon." It also had a French registration plate. Because of the relative benevolence of BA's conditions of service, plenty of cabin crew successfully live away from the airline's base in London, returning only when necessary for a tour of duty. Never mind another country: some of their counterparts in other airlines accuse BA cabin crew of living on another planet. When easyJet flies from Gatwick to Sharm el Sheikh in Egypt, its cabin crew stay for no more than an hour before coming back; when BA flies the same route, the crew get two or three nights, on full pay and while staying in a five-star hotel, to enjoy the Red Sea coast. Whilst I have sympathy for the Chorus steel workers laid off last week, I can't have sympathy for this lot.

...as far as I am aware, he wants to continue flights over the Christmas period and so I don't see what it has got to do with him.