de-fence

As a footnote to that I also see that view as incorrect and a very cynical assessment of humanity. I live my life in the right way for the good of myself and those that I love. I don't need to be god fearing to prevent myself from killing people or stealing. The ingrained conscious I have prevents me from doing that and no, I do not believe that was provided by God either. Slightly different point but I find it interesting how atheists/agnostics are massively in the majority on this thread. It does seem like finally people are beginning to think rationally about the subject and make up there own mind based on the absent evidence on offer for the existence of God. It almost seems like the only Christians left are those that have been 'brainwashed' by their parents. I have several good friends who used to be devout Christians who converted to being atheists having had a chance to grow up and really consider the situation for themselves. I do truly believe that Christianity, in the UK at least, is slowly dying out.

I think you have missed my point slightly. You have, like you said, provided a link between theism and morality. That is justification for the existence of God through our inherent morality but it has nothing to do with the conception of the universe. I'm after a link between morality and the cosmos. They're separate entities as I see it. I can comprehend the link between theism and morality as you have stated there. I can also comprehend the link between the unknown and a supernatural force of some kind. But the assertion that this supernatural force and a morality judging God (the theism we refer to here) are the same is what I fail to grasp. I think they call this 'the leap of faith'. I see this missing link as the key failing in using the unknowns of the universe to justify religion. Sorry if you perceive me to have missed your point.

I have another gripe with religion that I don't believe is addressed often enough. A lot of religious arguments are grounded on the notion that we do not know enough about the universe we live in, particularly its boundaries and conception. I can understand the need for some people to fill this gap with a supernatural being, for the sake of their own comfort if nothing else, so that they do not have to live in a universe of so much uncertainty. HOWEVER, where does the leap come whereby you go from a supernatural being filling a gap in our understanding of the universe to a God that judges our morality. How are these two intrinsically linked?

You raise some good points here and i agree with a lot of what you say. I feel compelled to point out though that you are slightly incorrect with regards to what you said about cells. The cells in your brain, which does supposedly hold your conscious, are not replaced. You lose them but the ones you die with were there from the start.

Even as an atheist, I have to have the humility to admit that some sort of supernatural being is not entirely out of the question. I am constantly fascinated by the existence of anything let alone the existence of the trivial problems we concern ourselves with from day to day. Thus, I will not be so arrogant as to dismiss a, unbeknown to us, driving force behind the creation of the universe as we know today. I still believe this would be possible to explain with science, even if it is too comprehensible for any human to be able to understand. But I'm trying to rationalise something I have just admitted I don't think exists so will stop here. The aspect of religion is however something I have never and will never understand. How any sensible, rational, educated individual can openly admit to believing in the Christian (or any other religion's) God I find just incomprehensible. Even taking it to the most simple to understand level that you can, the logistics of it make no sense. Put aside the notion that this 'moral' God allows some people in this world to live lives of luxury and others to live in squaller, why are some of us 'fortunate' enough to be born into Christian society. I have a good Christian friend who adamantly believes that if you do not accept and rejoice in the existence of God then you will, by default, not be granted access to heaven. This invites various points that label God as an evil, fascist, discriminatory being: 1) If you're one of the world's majority who belong to a society (through no choice or fault of your own) that has adopted an alternative God. You may have never even had access to a bible should you wish to read it - Regardless, you go to hell. 2) My friend believes that no homosexual can be a Christian as the scriptures handed down deter it. Thus if you happen to grow up and realise that you are homosexual, again through no fault of your own - you go to hell. 3) I'm a fan of the Streets (make of that what you will) and Mike Skinner presents a pretty valid point in a song named 'Alleged Legends' (albeit not a very good song). He says that if God is all powerful and I am merely a pawn in his play unable to truly control what I believe, why am I being punished for this when he created me this way, as an atheist. Further, if he is all powerful why does he require us to fight for his cause in wars. For a much more uplifting theory on life, may I direct you to 'On the edge of a cliff', also by the Streets. I'll quote a lyric 'For millions of years from the outset of time, every single one of your ancestors survived, every single person on your mum and dad's side successfully looked after and passed onto you life'. I believe the theories of Darwin to be the most beautifully constructed explanations for current ecosystems existing as they do. Having some chump tell me that everything was created as it is today genuinely does make me angry. Religion doesn't explain how we all exist here as we do, it sh1ts all over it.

My summary: 3: Fox 4: K. Davis, Mayuka, Gazzaniga 5: Hooiveld 6: Fonte, Lallana, Guly, Ramirez 7: Yoshida, Rodriguez, JWP, Boruc, S. Davis 8: Clyne, Lambert, Shaw, Puncheon 9: Schneiderlin, Cork

Well we're safe. This season can't end soon enough now. Do a job next Sunday then forget about the last few weeks of the season and enjoy the summer.

Don't you feel like a clueless c*nt now then

get in there you bunch of c*nts!!!

Why shouldn't people. Have some faith in your keeper ffs. Hooiveld never stood a chance of clearing that.

Just **** off Hooiveld. What the **** are you thinking trying to get a touch on that.

Final ball has been simply rubbish

Looking sloppy now. Can't be drawn down to Sunderland's level

Really poor delivery from Lallana. Can someone in our team please learn how to take a ****ing set piece

I actually would like to see them beat Arsenal. I always wanted Wigan gone from the league cost I thought they didn't belong there. But they have really grown on me recently culminating in today. This is all pending tomorrow's results of course and our result is undoubtedly my priority but say we were to win tomorrow I would love to see Wigan beat Arsenal.

Leeds last season. Battered and I mean BATTERED for 90 minutes and somehow still got the 3 points when we needed it most. That was 90 minutes of pure agony.

Thought Stoke were very loud

**** off Bale

Ambivalent?!?!?! Scored over 100 goals for the team you supposedly support in 4 seasons and you're ambivalent about him. Remind me to never take any notice of anything you say on here again.

Not sure why but I didn't feel as comfortable giving him that ovation after the Arsenal game as I did for Walcott. With Walcott it was sensible for all parties with us being short on cash and in a bit of a slump. With AOC we were on the up and I think it was also the behaviour of his dad, trying to solicit the move in the press that annoyed me. Also, I may have been the only one who thought this but in the away game AOC seemed really eager to score against us. Like I've never seen a player try and be so lively and direct with the ball, trying to get shots off whenever he could. I know that's his style of play but it was a different level. As if he had a point to prove. Walcott on the other hand played his normal game and even though he did score, he handled the situation with dignity.

Sorry if I've missed something here but can someone tell me why they have had 10 points deducted on the bbc website. Has that been confirmed as happening this season or has somebody just gone and jumped the gun?

Agreed. And I think Davis should start ahead of Ramirez. Don't rate Ramirez that highly in all honesty.

Bit boring when the thread was finally getting away from that

It is the same as QPR's and one better than Reading's

Yea there's a few bizarre scenarios that could come out of that game. 0-0 with 5 minutes left... it would be the most end to end game you'd ever see.