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A central principle of Warsi's defence of FPTP is "one person, one vote". If the Tories had seen fit to implement this in their own leadership election, Cameron would not be leader of the party. Lord Norton is using the letter of the electoral system used to mask the end result. If you vote for someone who is eliminated in the first round of a run-off contest, then whoever you choose in the next run-off is, by default, your second preference. He's not ill-informed on the issue at all. Quite the opposite, he's deliberately misleading. As I've said before, the only difference between a run-off and AV is the amount of times a voter needs to vote. And you're right. I'm not elected to any office, same as Warsi. She's on Any Questions, I'm idly dismantling arguments that have been regurgitated verbatim by people on a football forum. Go figure.

Btw, just listening to Baroness Warsi on Any Questions (Radio 4) on the AV issue. She denied that Cameron was elected on anything like AV. What a thoroughly despicable piece of work she is. Ill-informed, deceptive and without a shred of concern for anything outside the Conservative Party. It wouldn't be so bad if she were a heavyweight intellectual on the right side of the spectrum, but she's far from that. She strikes me as combative but unintelligent, is completely unelected herself, yet feels she is able to contribute to a debate on electoral reform.

You feel that way now, but when the next Labour government comes in and repeals Dave's "Legalisation of shooting peasants" bill, you'll be moaning about strong Government then.

Yep. AV is a run-off with the farting about eliminated. I do also find the "minority party vote being counted several times" argument amusing. All available votes are included in the count on each round.

Fair point, but it's still a mandate. It's how we elect our MPs now, so we're no worse off. People will have to engage in AV for it to work.

Am I alone in feeling a twinge in my nads whenever I read a story about someone elses nads getting mutilated?

It's a start, and it'll at least guarantee that candidates have a mandate from their constituents.

I just don't understand the no campaign. Few of the arguments hold any water. "Strong governments" essentially equate to an idealogical cabal whipping their members into voting for whatever hair-brained schemes they daydreamed up in opposition. Does everyone in Britain fall into the Conservative or Labour Government viewpoints? They're the only two parties that'll get to form a Government. The scare tactics shat out by the No Campaign about BNP votes being counted again and again are ridiculous. If you're on board with the idea of a run-off election, where voters go into the polling stations to vote again if no candidate reaches a majority, then you're on-board with AV. AV is essentially a turbo run off election. The only difference is that we voters don't have to repeatedly trudge down to the local primary school to cast our votes until there is a winner. AV is not going to deliver true representation, and to be honest, it probably won't change much in terms of the Governments that get formed. Only PR can deliver that. If we say no to AV we are unlikely to another chance to change our voting system in our lifetime. It's 36 years since the last UK-wide referendum. Personally, I want to see full PR. Everyone should have a voice, irrespective of whether you agree with their opinion. MPs having to work with each other for the good of the country, rather than engaging in internecine squabbles, might actually be a good thing. Certainly hasn't done Germany any harm.

No matter what happens in the remaining five games, we have a chance at promotion regardless. Sweet.

To have not seen the League of Gentlemen is unfortunate. Leaping to conclusions over ignorance of this programme could be careless. Verbal, try this link to get an idea of the origin of Turkish's avatar :-

This is bloody weird. My missus knew the victim. He leaves a partner and a child. Just f**king bizarre that Brian 'Terry' Regan is behind it.

Just back. Bit of a frustrating game. Lots of passes went astray. Lots of little mistakes contributing to the overall failure. Rochdale were not a great side. They had a plan to put bodies behind the ball and smack us on the counter. The number of blocked shots was pretty impressive. Their keeper also played well. On a different night, we might have come away with something more. Tonight, things didn't go so well. The positives for Saints were that we still looked like a capable side despite the injury list. We had a lot of half-chances, most of those created from a bit of grit and effort. The negatives? Team blend is a bit worrying, with Guly probably being the prime culprit. There was a five minute spell where it seemed every Saints touch resulted in a Rochdale interception. Fair play to Rochdale, they had a plan and they executed it well, but they weren't pretty and they definitely didn't play us off the park. Probably not a bad thing to have a loss. We can just about spare it, and if the team can learn from the mistakes made tonight, we're still in good shape for automatic promotion.

"He's run his socks into the ground".

Yeah, I was catching up on footy this morning on iPlayer, and thought exactly that. The goals that dropped Petersborough points against Huddersfield and Bournemouth were proper howlers. Agree with @NickG about Kelvin. I had misgivings initially because of bad reports from a Mackem mate, but we've kept a lot of clean sheets with him between the sticks. Mind you, the fact that he has Fonte in front of him probably doesn't hurt. Jaidi is doing very well for a man of his age too.

Manish was too busy fluffing the script up, so I would be unsurprised if there was something about Saints which he forgot to say. Nervy performance by the lad.

This is Southampton, sir. We'll have no ferrets here

Unfortunately not. These people tried to make some. The Force was not with them.

I have officially left the Jedi faith. In some religions, apostasy will get you killed. It's a good job lightsabers are not real.

I was down at the Premier Inn on NYE last year with my family. Parking is £5 a night, the place is full of prostitutes ( my youngest actually said "Dad, I think I've just seen my first hooker" as we pulled into the lobby ), and if you go 50 yards off-site in two directions, you're liable to get a slap. For the last two observations, I think you should stay there Dune. You obviously need both.

As I live a life akin to a nomadic bedouin, I was of course, not there tonight. However, I have been quasi-religious about listening to commentary on SaintsPlayer, normally whilst at work. Really appreciate the texture that the people who were actually at the match provided on this thread. Onwards, and hopefully, upwards! Hoping to make the Rochdale away fixture.

Is that a picture of dune, or his "getting busy" material?

Ah dune, you're back from your proclamations of doom and gloom from yesterday's match thread? Do us a favour and post a pic of yourself. Then we can make snap judgements on you based on appearance. If you are willing to oblige us, please ensure that your immense pile of crusty jizz tissues is out of frame. Oh, and that's me making a snap judgement based on the quality of your posts.

Arcade Fire fight! I love Funeral. Really do. Had it on constant rotation for ages. However, it has barely got a look in recently. Btw, not saying you're wrong. Music is a highly subjective thing. Personally, I love the range on Suburbs. And the little reprise at the end is genius - makes me want to start it all over again, and I often do.

Bump! Recently got into this band. Definitely not something you'll get onto on the first play, but have listened to all three albums. Of all of them, The Suburbs is the best. However, all of their albums are amazing, Listen to them in order, pore over their sounds, and wonder, really wonder, if anyone else is doing anything like this with such a degree of craftmanship.

Summer job, eh? Never had that experience. Always worked all year round. Please note : not saying this to be a "I've worked harder than you" type of nob. I just happened to find working in term time to be an accidental wonder in terms of time management. When I was working, I literally couldn't study. When I wasn't working, all I wanted to do was study. Unwittingly, I introduced a massive pallet-cleanser to my student life. My advice? Get your summer job and earn a wee bit of cash. Have fun. When you go back to Uni, get a job in a bar - preferably in a Student Union.