pap

Got a link to the original article? I'd like to tweet this.

I think the counter-point is that we need to start taking responsibility for everyone, and not just leaving people to rot in ghettos while we live in blissful ignorance.

Disturbances were happening in broad daylight yesterday. Part of why they were so shocking.

Brilliant in bold. That's the problem saintbletch - these people have no answers. Sure, they call for harsher punishment, but that'll only work in the short term. This country needs to sort its priorities out, and ensuring that our young people have decent opportunities should be priority number one. A lot of the posts here are predicated on a utopian egalitarian society which simply doesn't exist.

A really poor response to a well put case. Not really hard to determine why people feel disenfranchised if these ravings are reflective of general public sentiment. Did you ever wonder why you had gangs in Tottenham? Ever wonder why Jamaican Yardie culture is prevalent there? Probably not. Far easier to label them as bad guys and leave it at that. Shame really.

Thank you trousers and saintbletch. You are both right. I look at the people here screaming for "somebody to do something" and think "how weak are you?". Every time you cede your responsibility, you cede your own power. People have been doing this for generations, getting "someone else to sort it out" and this is the result. Some posters in this thread would have us go to war with our own youth. They are part of the problem. Nice to see a few posters actually trying to assess how we got here, rather than simply screaming abuse like a noblet.

SaintBletch - very good post.

A sure sign of wealth, eh? Only really works if you actually believe these kids went into a designer store and bought these clothes at full whack. You've never really spent any time amongst poorer people, have you?

Ultimately, this is our collective fault. If one of my kids went off the rails, it'd be my fault, right? Well, the nation's youth are going off the rails, so collectively, it is the nation's fault. These people haven't sprung up overnight. They have been here all the time, their problems gave been here all the time. We've just ignored then or in some cases, sneered at them from afar. Not so easy to ignore now, right? Way I see it, this goes one of two ways. We either 'crush the scum' and take another plod toward a police state, or we try to create conditions and opportunities so that people don't fancy rioting. It'll probably be the former, as despite the Internet hard man stances on here, what you really want is to apportion blame and have someone else sort it out for you.

I live about a mile and a half from an area where things are allegedly going off now. The missus is scared - she lived through the 1981 riots we had here. I've got some perspective, but I stand by my views.

Reports of a disturbance in Lodge Lane, Liverpool. That's about a mile and a half away from me. Can't see anything yet.

So you would rather spend money locking people up than addressing the root cause of the problem? Ultimately, any problem this country has with its youth is a result of what we, or our ancestors have done. I think we owe them better solutions than the one that you propose.

So what laws would you change to increase the deterrent? Lock more people up? Keep them in worse conditions? Hang people? The problem with most of the deterrents that people suggest is that they don't really deter. Look at the US. States without the death penalty have consistently lower murder rates.

So if it's thuggery, why do we have so many thugs? Simple question.

If people insist on labelling this as simple thuggery, you might at least question why our society produces so many of them in the first place. The answers are myriad. Dissolution of traditional family units, lack of opportunities for the generation coming through, the high price and the perceived unattainably of degrees. I understand the feelings of posters on here who've started with humble beginnings and have worked hard to get where they are. I get that entirely. I have somewhat less sympathy for middle-class snipers taking another shot at the poor without really understanding their problems. Whichever group you might be from, by virtue of presumably being quite a bit older than these kids, you had better opportunities. Some of you will have lived in the golden age of employment, when it was possible to leave a job on Monday and get another on Tuesday. Some of you will have made your money when we still had a decent manufacturing base. The housing was more affordable; the prospects of owning one were greater. Some of you will have had your education paid for, in full. The youth today have got none of those things, and if were a kid today comparing what I've got with what we had, I'd probably be p*ssed off too. The prospects of our kids needs to be our number one priority. Simply labelling them as thugs is not the answer.

Props to @botherer on twitter. From April 2010. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo

It's ok. David Cameron is coming to sort it all out. Mixed feelings myself. Part of me thinks it's good that he's actually taking ownership. Another part thinks his involvement will be like pouring petrol on a fire. Trouble in Birmingham is a bit worrying.

Watching it on TV right now. Burning cars in Hackney. Unprecedented numbers of officers being shipped in from other forces. Reports of Birmingham trouble coming in (on BBC news now) River Island and/or Footlocker and/or JD being smashed up. Bullring and Birmingham New Street both on lockdown. ( [url=]http://lockerz.com/s/127818415[/url] )

Might be bogus:

There are unverified twitter accounts of rioting near the Bullring, Birmingham.

I know people moan about Arsenal, but from the Rupes thread, it appears like they've treated us with respect. Someone in the Rupes thread mentioned that Theo could have just gone for tribunal money, while £12 million up-front for AOC is no insult. As long as they continue to be as 'respectful' when whipping out their wallets, they can have who they like (except Lallana).

I think a lot of fans will agree with you on this. I certainly do. Just goes to show how far Southampton FC have come since the last time we sold a big player.

Thought exactly the same thing. Not just catty, that's meow-vellous. (already getting coat)

What would be your qualification for deportation?

So er, you don't have any ideas of your own then?