The Left Back

On my way up on the train. Hoping for the best today but prepared for the worst. Looking back at the last time I saw us play at the Bridge. Feb 92, a very wet 1-1 draw in front of 7000 fans. How times have changed, except the weather. Looking at the team sheet we played three left backs that night and had another come off the bench so four on the pitch at once. Surely a record? And we had a future left back playing for them. Could I be a lucky omen today?

I love the corinthian sentiment and I agree with the spirit of it, but I think the relationship between sport and money is much more complex than that. And to say if it's all about money it isn't sport pretty much wipes out the concept of professionalism.

I am finding I manage to agree (and disagree) with you both here. I absolutely loved the rise through league one and championship, back to back promotions, lots of games, loads of wins, Saturday 3pm kick-offs (having said that I didn't enjoy the 4 seasons in the championship on the way down). But the feeling of beating the big boys on the biggest stage is an amazing feeling - Liverpool 4-1 in 89, Man U several times in the 90s, as well as some of the recent ones. (although losing at home to teams we expect/need to beat, only winning 7-10 games all season, fixtures shovelled all over the weekend are things I hate about being at this level). For me it all comes down to the experience of watching the team I Iove. I can watch anyone play football, the game has a rhythm that is addictive and I enjoy any standard. When it is played by the club I've been brainwashed into loving it just matters in a way that I can't explain to anyone who doesn't feel the same.

You seem to have translated "bare minimum" into "happy to be a club". Not sure if that's a misunderstanding. I wouldn't expect anyone to be "happy to be a club" that just achieves "the bare minimum", just recognising what's needed to increase sustainability and improve the chances of building something more 'successful' to cheer on and make us happy. I often think about the so called yo yo clubs like Norwich, Watford and West Brom. Would I trade the probability of misery one year for the hope of glory the next? Not sure, but it would have its thrills and spills. We've basically hit 'the bare minimum' in all bar 3 seasons since 1978. The seasons when I have felt 'happy to be a club' with the success of our season are probably about 10-12 of those 43 years. Most of the other years have been either straightforward or a nerve-wracking (successful) fight against relegation. Every season has had its narrative and it's moments, for me it's far too early to tell how this one will play out.

@Charlie WaymanI really can't agree with the point you are making here. In my opinion the purpose of these videos is to make the OS more of a 'destination site' than merely a place you go to buy tickets. Engaging tailored content, targeted at the market (i.e. Saints goals for Saints fans) is standard on-line Marketing 101. The idea that is a political tactic to deflect doesn't make sense and sounds like paranoia. I've just been on the site and the 'on this day' highlights stuff is sat next to highlights and videos of Sunday's defeat, and the latest Horsman excuses, so not much deflection. I actually like to look back at memorable moments from the past, and would be surprised if most fans didn't? The content is relevant as it is 'on this day' and comes in small bite-sized lumps, which are perfect for the modern user. Would you prefer it if they showed us losing a bit more? Your thread has initiated a rather more interesting conversation about the definition of success. On the Ralph thread I suggested there are probably three objectives for Ralph. (1) stay up, (2) have a crack at the cups and (3) help us build a sustainable future for the club. I think that has broadly been the job description for most Southampton managers in the 45 years I've had a season ticket (apart from when we've needed to get promoted, when we had that golden spell in the early/mid 80s and perhaps briefly in the Poch/Koeman period). I guess on reflection perhaps I would add that a good objective to add to this would be (4) to do better than the previous season (on which measure I guess Ralph would have failed last year having succeeded the first two).

I'm looking forward to this game, not least because the review of the last game seems to be endless and it's making me depressed. This is the first away game I'm going to for quite some time. I've been given a Chelsea season ticket and will be going with a Chelsea-supporting work colleague and friend after a hearty lunch. So it's going to be a strange experience trying to keep a lid on my emotions, especially if we score (yes I know, not much chance of that). Perhaps a 0-0 is best for me personally, although I would happily trade abuse and threats of physical violence (and possibly even a slap) for 3 points. As for the team, Id have the same as Wolves except Perraud in for Moi and so we can finally see the Tino?KWP combo.

I am not sure I agree with your work analogy @Billy the Kiddthe main reason being that in the SFC case you are not the line manager. Bear with me, I'm not trying to undermine you, it's just some thoughts. Your employee, I'll call him Ian, sounds like he's done well in the previous two jobs (as you re-hired him) but not this time. I am going to assume Ian's objectives were clear to him and you and that you worked closely enough to him to gauge whether he was performing and hitting his objectives. I'll also assume Ian's. objectives weren't made known to the general public (it's a flourish not essential to my point). Let's replace you with Semmens (or is it Crocker, doesn't really matter?), Ian with Ralph and jobs with seasons. First things first, none of us know Ralph's objectives and we are not close enough to the workplace to be able to monitor performance against them. We hear the public utterances but that's not the same. So I'll have a guess they are (1) keep us up (2) have a crack at the cups and (3) help us build a sustainable club for the future. There might be some additional second-order objectives about finishing as high as possible and adhering to the brand/being professional, and building a healthy culture at Staplewood. And possibly something about give us some excitement from time to time and make sure we recover well from adversity (I'm getting carried away now). My point is that in Ralph's three seasons it's possible he has delivered his objectives every time and that, based on 6 games, there is nothing to suggest he won't deliver on them again this year. I can't know if any of this is the case, but then again I don't think any of us can. We may not like the imagined objectives, and we may not enjoy the rollercoaster involved in his delivery of them, but we can't assume "he hasn't been pulling his weight" or "performance can't continue". We cant even assume 'results are all over the place' as we don't know what he is being measured against. Not sure this is adding much to the overall thread who knows?

I think I said on this thread last week that I'm behind the manager and one game isn't going to change that. I've really appreciated the quality of dialogue on this thread since yesterday's poor performance and it has got me wondering if I'm being too loyal in feelings towards Ralph as our manager. I still can't help but liking him as a manager but the question marks over some of his decisions are valid and I don't have decent answers for them. I end up defaulting to the belief that I trust his judgment, given his experience and skills and the fact he gets to work with the squad all week. After poor performances and results it's hard to justify my belief. So if it were a supporter-owned club and we all had a vote I'd still be voting to keep him. I think there is a natural knee-jerk reaction after days last yesterday and so I wouldn't want us voting on him today, but then by the same token we shouldn't be voting after a good point at the champions. The win stats for 2021 are pretty bleak and every time we have this debate they will be rightly trotted out until we can make them look better. I look at his record (on wikipedia so hope its accurate). Comparing him to managers with a similar number of games under his belt, his win ratio is worse than Nigel Adkins and George Burley, but they were operating in lower divisions. Strangely it is almost identical to Gordon Strachan's, and better than Dave Jones' and Ian Branfoot's (no shit Sherlock I hear you shout). So I think. in the bigger picture, it is not now the time to sack him. I like the question of when would I? I think it would be if we are relegated, or in a league position where relegation was almost inevitable. So probably not until March at the earliest. I think as a club we are very invested in Ralph (perhaps too much as someone said) so replacing him is not straightforward and runs some short term risks, which I think we should only take either if we (a) are in a desperate relegation scrap (b) he's lost the dressing room or (c) we have a summer break to do it. My only exception to this thinking was if the club had got someone very exciting lined up who could pick of project Ralph with minimum disruption. Frank Lampard is the only name I've heard that fits the bill, and even with him there is a question mark for me about his commitment to us given how quickly he got out of Derby (although to be fair perhaps he saw the writing on the wall there). I'd want assurances he is in for a minimum 3 years if I was hiring. I've also seen questions in the last 24 hours about the quality of our players. So I looked up the team we put out that took us to the top of the table (albeit briefly). The starting 11 that night included McCarthy, Bednarek, KWP, JWP, Romeu, Djenepo, Walcott and Adams. That night we also had S Armstrong and Stephens, both of whom I'd argue we missed badly yesterday. The 11th player that night was Vesty, who was in the middle of his brief purple patch, and who I think we are pretty unanimous on we are not missing. Redmond came on for 15 minutes and Long for 2. So I think it is too easy to write off yesterday's team, and our squad in general, in terms of capability.

Just back from a very frustrating game. Apart from two 10 minute spells either side of half time I though we were very flat and disjointed. We just couldn't get anything going. Wolves did a real number on us. Their setup seemed just right to nullify our passing game and they made us look very ordinary. They pushed their wing backs up very high and were brave on ball. They used used Moutinho as a quarter back and we couldn't get near him. Having said that they didn't really threaten much. Apart from a save in the first minute McCarthy had nothing much to do. We are definitely lacking in creativity and risk-taking. Too many playing the safe pass rather than trying to unlock. It was obvious Ralph spotted this at half time because early in the second half we managed to get passes in round the corner and make a few chances. But the game was so open at that stage and their goal from the one moment of quality from the classiest striker on the pitch. Was amazed to see we had 18 shots and 6 on target, compared to their 5 and 3. It didn't feel like that at all and just shows how misleading stats can be. As for our 57% possession, 95% of that was a safe pass going nowhere. It's hard for me to pick anyone that played well and that speaks volumes. I actually thought Redmond did OK, but that was only compared to the rest. Tino was alright I suppose but not as good as he has been. I think miss Stephens as we need our centre backs to be brave enough to take the ball into midfield, which neither Bednarek or Salisu are very good at. I'm not worried about the result or our position in the table (still too early for all that) but the performance was concerning. Finally not sure what's happening with Tella; it seems very strange to me that he's not starting or at least getting on.

Agree this feels like a significant weekend. As someone wrote earlier, a win gives us a feeling of a good start and a defeat ramps the pressure. I just hope we perform as we have done so far this season (45 minutes at Everton aside) and with a little more creativity and flair going forward. But I've never seen the point of looking at the league table until about 10 games in. It's just too volatile until then. Normally by then I can get a sense of how the season will play out for most teams (although there's always exceptions like us last season) I'll predict a 2-0 win with Armstrong and Adams getting one each

In amongst all the name calling and ranting there's a lot of interesting views on this thread. It's a shame there isn't a filter to weed out all that because what would be left would be an interesting exploration on the evolution of formations and descriptions of positions over the last 50 years. My contribution to the topic is probably not going to help but here goes anyway. When I was a child I remember my uncle going on about half backs, wing forwards and inside forwards, and formations seemed to be basically 2-3-5, which was a bizarre concept to me when I played him at subbuteo. I also remember Holland in 74 and the idea of total football and being in awe and confused. I also remember in the 80s after a period of dominance in Europe we seemed to get left behind because we insisted on 4-4-2 to the point of rigidity, which left us (English clubs/England) overwhelmed in midfield and lacking in creativity with the ball. I don't remember 66, but wasn't Sir Alf considered revolutionary for creating "the wingless wonders"? My uncle saw it as heresy to pick a team without wingers (he was one when he played). So no doubt these things have always evolved and will continue to do so long after we become as old as my uncle. I hadn't heard of 4-2-2-2 until Ralph joined, and pivots were something dancers did. I remember Barcelona (under Pep I think) played with. a 'false 9' and found it bewildering. I guess what I'm saying is, like most things, styles, tactics, formations and names for positions just keep evolving whether I like it or not. I think what does seem different (and I'm guessing started in 92 with the Premier League and grew with new technology) is the amount of scrutiny and analysis that goes on. It really is mind boggling just how much stuff there is to measure that we just didn't in the past. Most of it goes over my head or leaves me cold - I prefer the simplicity of the game. But (as I've said elsewhere) I've enjoyed learning some of the new thinking and it definitely helps me keep up with my son (21). I've realised that possession stats are pretty pointless, but that XG helps me understand how a team is playing at a glance. Two other thoughts. I always found it strange that Matt Le Tiss was called a midfielder because I grew up thinking midfielders were like Bryan Robson and Steve Williams. But Matt didn't do midfielder things like tackling and tracking very well. So I'm not sure how he would be described now. And finally I remember the season (or two) when Chris Nicholl picked Rod Wallace, Rideout, Shearer and Le Tiss in the same team. He was asked in interview how come a dour old defender like him picked such an attacking formation. He said (something like)" I would prefer to pick a more solid, defensive team but these are my best players so they have to play" So perhaps it was different back then, and simpler. Formations and tactics were dependent on personnel, whereas now it feels like the other way round.

I'm with you on this. Based purely on a couple of games I really like his movement. I think once he gets fully integrated into our system he could be a real handful. There's something about him that looks the real deal. Hopefully something like Kevin Phillips when he hits his peak. Also I remember some Blackburn fans suggestions that he shoots too much. I like that actually and think we would benefit from having someone like that as we can be a bit goal-shy.

I was at the game (JPT?) when we beat Norwich in a shoot out. It was an evening game. They absolutely murdered us during the game and I was convinced we would win the shoot out as we had got out of jail, and it looked like our players did too. don't think we missed one. It was at the Chapel end.

In my pre-contributing, stalker days on this forum I had you, @TWardown as a pretty level-headed, objective poster who introduced me to some analytical approaches I hadn't come across before, and which I've enjoyed. So there is something about this Lyanco thread that doesn't sound like you. I was wondering if he had personally upset you, or perhaps even if someone had stolen your log in. I think that it's safe to say the jury is still out on Lyanco. He could yet do a Hoedt or an Aldeweireld, or end up somewhere in-between (Stephens?) There is so little data to go on, and most of it mediated by others' opinion. So I'm surprised you've taken such an entrenched position on this one. And the longer this thread goes on (15 pages already and he's only played 74 minutes) the deeper your trench is getting, and the more you are being triggered by others to dig deeper. My opinion is that we simply don't know how he will be for us. I'm intrigued to find out. On the one hand the reports from his last club aren't great and his twitter account is bizarre, on the other I trust our recruitment and coaching at the moment and so am giving them every opportunity to make him shine. I think we need ball-playing centre halves for the style we play and my worry is that without Stephens and Vestergaard we have lost some of that. So if Ralph can get him playing well enough for us in the next couple of months he could come in very handy.

I'm a fan of Ralph and hope he stays long enough for us all to see whether the changes he has made throughout the club (or helped to make with Semmens etc) bear fruit. To me it would be bonkers to consider replacing him at this point in the journey. I like the energy and identity he has brought to the club. We play a progressive, intense version of the game that I much prefer to what preceded it. Also we have so much invested in his way of doing things, in terms of the squad and the set-up, that any change is going to take a lot of time, effort and money to execute. So I think the club has gone all-in on the Ralph project and we may as well buckle up for the ride. I completely understand the criticism he attracts. It's impossible to lose 9-0 twice in consecutive seasons without serious stick and I've also questioned some of his selections and tactics. Even though that wet Friday night at home to Leicester will haunt me for a while the strange thing is I am not holding a grudge toward the manager about it. The mate I go to games with and I are often surprised that we aren't more critical of him. We've been season ticket holders together since 1978 and plenty of managers have lost our trust and respect. But for reasons I can't quite fathom we are still very pro-Ralph. There is something about him we just like, both in terms of his managerial style and his personality. And the way he (sometimes) can get us playing. Mostly I think we simply believe he is good for the club and the right man for the job.

Fantastic result, it sounds like everyone played really well. I find it hard to follow away games so generally end up gardening. Popped in here a couple of times but the venom on these match threads from an hour before kick-off is not very enlightening. I simply don't understand why 20-30 supporters - of the same team - get so angry with each other. Reminds me of the 80's when fans used to start fights with each other when they couldn't get close to the opposition. I'm all for plenty of opinion and banter, but don't get the hate. We're all saints - I assume. As for the penalty my son showed me the clip on twitter. I feel sorry for Moss in a way. He gave the penalty, then in front of 53000 fans and surrounded by Man City players he's asked to take another look. I'd like him to have grown a pair and stick to his original decision but can see why he bottled. In my view it should not have been overturned because there was no clear and obvious error but the blame lies with he VAR guy (did someone say Atkinson?). I'm not sure about corruption but he's definitely let his ego get the way of his decision making.

I am sure I could but I am not so bothered. I was intrigued more than anything because I had just assumed the other interpretation. I kind of hoped you would be able to produce some sort of evidence to back up your story, which otherwise sounds like it belongs in Viz. And I know others are having a pop at you about this but please don't assume I am. If you're right I'm surprised we didn't sing it ourselves when Brighton were at the Withdean.

I think the emphasis should probably be on you to prove you are right. I had a quick look and couldn't find anything to back up your interpretation of the origin. I did stumble on several different derivations for the chant but they were all broadly homophobic. I'd be happy for your story to have substance

Where do you look at the attendances to draw that conclusion? I also take an interest in the topic of attendances and am struggling to find definitive data. This link https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2021 shows four clubs, including ours, have not submitted attendance data so far this season and that a number of clubs, including the champions, are not selling out. Most of the other sites have even less complete data. That's not to say we are getting near capacity. Looking around on Saturday I was guessing 25-26k so something is not right. But the narrative that it is just us that has a problem seems baseless unless you can help me find some more credible data.

I thought his introduction changed everything on Saturday (apart from the result sadly). He brought pace, energy, directness and physicality. He looks a great prospect to me - reminded me of early James Beattie (I think Broja might be faster but nowhere near Jonno Quick as some are suggesting). However it was 20 minutes against two tired carthorse defenders at the end of physically intense game played in hot weather. So to suggest he's suddenly going to be different class to the other options, the answer to our problems and a must-play regular from here on seems very premature to me. It's great to have hime here (for as long as it lasts) and I hope he proves as invaluable as some here are saying but let's not throw too much expectation his way yet.

Agree. Think this is the formation he will choose and, if so, the players I would pick. I'll predict a backs-to-the-wall-89th-minute-breakaway 1-0 (no point being a supporter if you can't dream; I still remember Steve Moran at Anfield when Liverpool were unbeatable)

I just don't agree with this description of the game. I didn't find it dour, unimaginative, forgettable or lacking in excitement. I guess we just see it differently. To say only Salisu was our only MotM candidate is harsh on Stephens. The comments about Tino just don't make any sense to me. Pretty much everyone round me has been purring about him for 2 games now. Perraud was good defensively and offensively and is starting to gel with Moussa, who I thought played pretty well too. Agree we could have been more ambitious earlier in the game, by bringing Tella or Adams on with Broja at the hour mark. I suspect Ralph may have done that if hadn't used up a sub earlier. My expectations are to see a team working well together, trying their best, playing to a clear plan and creating good chances in a loud and energised stadium. And yesterday I got that, albeit would have enjoyed more chances created in the first half. We've had a couple of seasons of being panned for being poor defensively and so I'm happy to have a period of getting the defensive organisation more solid. We know how Ralph wants to play, high press, slick pass, high energy, as you describe. Have patience, it will come.

Just back from the game. Cracking atmosphere and a pretty good game (and excellent for a 0-0). The new formation (4-1-4-1 by my reckoning) was a surprise and it certainly took West Ham 30 minutes to work it out. We sacrificed some potency up front for some solidity all over the pitch. That is the best organised I've seen us for a while and we didn't look wide open, apart from a couple of breakaways, which is definitely an improvement. I thought the back 5 all played brilliantly, individually and as a unit. I actually thought Ely grew into the game and Moussa did really well (so was surprised by some of the comments on here). Redmond is really frustrating. I can see why he plays because I imagine he does what the manager tells him in terms of organisational shape. It's just at key moments he sometimes/often seems to make the wrong choices. I am always really wanting him to do well because he's got the ability, but it just doesn't happen enough. Felt sorry for Armstrong because he had a pretty thankless task with the way we set up. Clearly the turning point was Broja coming on. We went from hanging on to being the more dangerous side in the blink of an eye. It's the first time I've seen him and he looks the real deal. It changed the momentum completely. We were on the front foot and should probably have won it. All in all I was pretty happy walking away from the stadium, with just that slight feeling that we could have won. The one thing that did stand out for me was how small we are as a team. We are tiny compared to the Giant Hammers. And when Romeu was replaced by Diallo we got smaller. But I think there was only one corner (perhaps 2) when it showed. It really helped that McCarthy came for everything and generally dominated his box. And it was noticeable that we passed up the chance for JWP set pieces a few times to keep the ball in play and on the ground. Finally a word on our character. It's said we lack leaders and characters on the pitch and I've often thought we were too quiet, nice and weak mentally. But today we looked very strong psychologically. There was a steel to us that was there v Man U and is definitely a development. It wasn't just in the obvious stuff (Salisu v Antonio was a great side show to watch) but in the way we communicated and worked together. At this time of the season I often think performances are more important than results so am pretty happy with how things are looking.

If we are playing fantasy tinkering I quite like the England formation last night. In which case, and with apologies for the poor visuals, here is my Saints equivalent based on current squad: Pickford = McCarthy Shaw = Perraud Walker = Tino/KWP Stones = Stephens Maguire = Salisu Rice = Romeu Phillips = JWP Mount = Stu Grealish =Tella Sterling =A Armstrong Kane = Adams

This thread has been running a week now. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has had their opinions shifted at all by the seven pages of input? Has anyone moved in their previously-held beliefs about the topics being raised? The reason I ask is that, as someone who has spent lots of time following these conversations, it seems to me that all they do is deepen the trenches that people were already standing in at the start. "Institutional racism is rife in this country". "No it's not" "Yes it is" "No it's not". "BLM is a Marxist organisation" "No it isn't" "Yes it is "No it isn't" Occasionally people pull in some data to the debate to strengthen their rightness. But it is rarely accepted by those in the other trench. and so it goes on. The trench gets deeper, reconciliation, or even agreement, gets harder. Perhaps I'm missing the point. In which case I'm sure I'll be told.