The Left Back

Apologies if this has been covered already but who knew we had 3 long throwers? Sugawara, Manning and THB all unleashed an Exocet into the mixer.

I agree relegation is very likely. 3 teams get relegated every season, they’re not doomed. We’ve been relegated 4 times in my tenure, each time we came back. The volume and level of catastrophising and doom mongering on here goes well beyond relegation and is at odds with a couple of points I think MLG was trying to make. That our ‘real world’ fans keep attending in huge numbers despite the situation we are in and also that this was the same in the Championship last season. I’d also add that the atmosphere in the ground remains very different to the one on this forum.

MLG, you are trying to win an argument using rational thinking (for which I applaud you). The problem is you are arguing with people who don’t want to hear anything other than variations of “we’re dooooooomed”

23 games left - two points per game, gives us 51 points. Not really enough for a European push at least 15 more than we'll need for survival. It's also fake news Let's assume we need 34 points to stay up. We have 5 so we need 29 more that's either 8 wins and 5 draws or 9 wins and 2 draws. The depressing thing about relegation battles (as compared to promotion ones) is how few games we actually win in a season. Just look back at the various Great Escapes and take the rose coloured specs off. Each time the escape was preceded by 6 months of garbage.

I assume you were on a sabbatical when we went into administration?

Pulling apart style of play from match results, I'm happy to pin my colours to the Russball mast. When we are playing well I enjoy the style of football more than the style of football for example when we played well under Koeman or Puel. But I also accept that possession based football, with an emphasis on retention over penetration, is not everyone's cup of tea and that other fans on here and sitting round me in the stadium have other preferences. But if we are talking purely about style of play then when we are playing well I like it a lot. The big question remains - can he get this team playing well enough in this division? My worries are pretty specific - does he have the technical nous to get us more solid in defence while retaining his preferred style? And secondly can he coach the conversion of possession into high xg chances? We've been rubbish at both for the most part but I think we are improving in both these areas, although the jury is still out for me. I hope he does manage to keep us up because as well as the style of play when we are playing well I also like the nature of the man and the way he goes about his business. Having grown up on McMenemy and Nicholl I'm also a fan of managerial stability.

To those who say Martin doesn't like to get the ball forward quickly should watch our goals from last season and count the number of times we turned defence into attack before the opposition had a chance to regroup. I vaguely remember some analysis of us during the high point of the unbeaten run (December 23, January 24) where the whole point of his playing philosophy was to use high risking passing out in order to create attacks. High risk, high reward. Why I think we haven't delivered this is not because he wants us to fanny around with it a bit more but because (a) we're playing against higher quality opponents and (b) we've lost some confidence, making the safer pass - with a decision made in a split second - more attractive. I call this JWP syndrome, as much as I loved him as a player, if he or the team were going through a tricky spell, he would revert to very safe passes backwards or sideways. So I don't agree with the script and don't even get me started on those who genuinely think that Martin wouldn't have enjoyed our goal against Everton. To suggest he's changed his principle to high risk low reward makes no sense. Even if you except the accusation that he's more interested in his CV than club success (which I think is nonsense but that's another story) high risk low reward football is hardly career enhancing. (And anyone who uses the words 'Vincent Kompany' to challenge that needs to do their research properly and not make lazy comparisons). I'm not giving RM a blank cheque. In the end it's a results business and he'll surely be sacked if he loses touch with 17th place or loses the dressing room. I worry about whether he can coach to the standard required - we simply don't know yet. And I worry that he has tinkered too much with selection, formation and subs (hardly intransigent though) - without real improvement (yet) apart from a few glimpses.

It's hard to overstate the difference in atmosphere between being in the stadium and being on here There it was utter delirium, camaraderie, some gallows humour and a sort of realism/optimism vibe Here it is bitterness, sniping, sarcasm and toxic cynicism (with apologies to those trying to bring some level of positivity to proceedings)

He may only get 5 years but what a great 5 years it promises to be. I'm already enjoying the impact it's having on the those who have been defending the absolute shit show we've all lived through over the last 14 years. 5 years might not be enough to repair all of the damage done but if they can keep their nerve and ignore the frothing southern gammons and the masochistic northern Anderson wannabes they can certainly make an impact.

Agree this was a budget harking back to labour, and long overdue. And it will make a nice rest and a change for the private sector to be fucking itself rather than fucking us.

Not sure Leeds fans would agree. Twenty years ago relegation saw them disappear. This time round they nearly bounced back immediately and I expect them to this time.

Agreed, it's just depressing on here at the moment. Every thread seems to get infected with some version of 'we're doomed'.

I'd like to see Starmer this week painting a picture of the country that we can all get behind. But I have a feeling he and his Government are not ready for that. All the time they are spending currently fixing the basics while defending various accusations (that are frankly conference standard scandals compared to the Champions league efforts of the previous lot) probably won't do them any harm in the long term. In fact it might help them get through this 'get shit done while being very unpopular' phase without having to nail their long term colours to the mast. By the time we next get to vote I'm hoping we can see a real difference in both how the country is run and also the society and economy we are aspiring to be. In the meantime it's all a bit of a pantomime for the masses while the real policy work goes on relatively unscrutinised.

I've got a golden rule that served me well in those many years where every season seemed to be a battle to stay up. Basically don't look at the table until the 10-game mark. It's only then that you can start to get a clear picture where us (and most others) may end up. It takes a lot of the stress out of being a Saints fan and prevents the need to be constantly washing the bed sheets in September and October. Happy to help.

The only counter I would offer your work colleague (having watched both games in full) is that in the first game Ipswich were very ordinary until we absolutely gifted them a goal, after which we fell to nerve-riddled pieces and they looked a bit less ordinary. And in the second game we played them off the park for over an hour and somehow contrived to lose late on. It's not much of a defence but the idea that they will win Saturday because of last season is flawed (and the idea they'll try harder cos our manager is ex-Norwich is nonsense). What's more relevant is current form, which certainly suggests it's going to be tough for us.

Listening to Frank Gardner on BBC this morning describing how ordinarily Israel would have aimed this particular attack immediately before an all out confrontation, the primary goal being to disable the enemy's communications capability. The hypothesis is that perhaps Hezbollah were on the verge of discovering the weapons and so Israel triggered them early. What blows my mind is how they have managed to make this happen. I've never heard of a weapon before that has the ability to personally attack the 'bad guys' without significant collateral damage.

And Eastleigh. I hear the manager there's a decent chap, and potentially a back up keeper as well. What's not to love? Seriously though, I think we need to stick with Martin, and I'm pretty sure the club will unless he loses the dressing room or it gets toxic in the ground. Neither of those seems imminent based on Saturday.

I heard it described (by an external analyst, not a remainer) as the first and only example of a sovereign nation imposing economic sanctions on itself. Still at least we took back control eh? Can't remember the guy's name, but we used to have a lorry driver turn up on here periodically telling us how great Brexit had been for him and his business. Where did he go?

It's very heartwarming to read our erstwhile right-leaning contributors have suddenly become champions of the poor and downtrodden. How long before they start asking for more progressive policies on asylum seekers? And how those same, Boris/Nigel-loving apologists have quickly found a moral compass now that there's someone else to batter with it. Can we expect them now to join the campaign to raise standards in public life? My personal barometer is that if the Mail and LD are moaning then the government is doing something right. There's plenty of change going on which will help rebuild this country, but none of it grabs the headlines as much as Maggie's photo being moved to a less distracting place in No. 10.

This is so Saints Web!! Give home grief all to pick a team like this and the when he does have another pop

Thanks for attempting to bring more to your argument. I fundamentally disagree with you on 90% of it but at least I'm beginning to understand you. I don't think taking £300 off a mixed bunch of old people is enough to warrant marxist allegations and won't be enough to 'ruin this country' but I can see that you fear this being the tip of the iceberg. I personally hope for a raft of policies that I suspect will give you similar rant-inducing palpitations. Your Thatcher point is comparing apples with pears. I grant she was an impactful leader and prepared to be unpopular in pursing her agenda. I didn't agree with her agenda at all, and was personally involved in some of the unwelcome consequences, but accept she was a leader of substance. I'm hoping Starmer is willing to be equally as unpopular in pursuit of a future or this country which is vastly different to the last 14 years. On the comparison with David Lammy, as I said it's apples and pears. I'd be interested in how you rate his performance against the last collection of Foreign Secretaries, and how they helped our 'world standing'. To remind you of who they were since 2010: Hague, Hammond, Johnson, Hunt, Raab, Truss, Cleverly, Cameron.

No one's denying you that. The problem you are having is one of credibility. I enjoy this Lounge forum when it engages in meaningful debate on important issues. It's quite a useful way of seeing the full spectrum of views on stuff. But it does require you to have some shred of credibility for your views. For me, seeing you batter people with your foam sledgehammer is at best an amusing distraction and at worst an irritating waste of time. This is the sort of thing I mean. All leaders 'operate the levers of power', it's in the job description. I am having to work too hard to work out what you mean. If I was guessing, by joining your quotes together, I think you believe that in the next five years Starmer will "advocate for the working class to overthrow the capitalist system and call for revolutionary change to achieve equality of outcome, not opportunity and social justice. Is that what you mean and what you believe? If so, please expand on why you think so. Back on thread, I think that ideologically Trump is not really far right in the traditional sense, though he certainly plays well to that crowd. He's more like far out; an unpredictable, self serving narcissist unfit for public office. So the main reason I want a Harris victory, and last night was an important positive step, is to bring a measure of hope, sanity, unity and peace to what looks like a pretty broken country. If I'm honest if this was Venezuela or Hungary I would be less bothered, but the US still has the ability to massively and directly affect global matters, many of which are in desperate need for some moral leadership and joined up thinking.

Just by turning up she is instantly the better person - but I get your point. The sad thing how few people seem to be persuadable at this stage. No matter what happens (assassination attempt on one side, change of candidate on the other) the polls are not really on the move. The Democrats will win the popular vote and the electoral college will be so close they'll either get the orange poisonous turd back or another 'stolen election'. Depressing.

I'm sure there's another thread about 4-2-3-1 but can't see it so dropping this in here. England are playing very fluidly and assertively in this system and I'd like to see Saints try it out. The key is who plays in the Grealish role, the free-roaming 10. I'm thinking Fernandes. It could be Dibling but I think he'd work better in the Saka role. BBD/Cornet/Fraser on the left and either AA or Archer up front. Given the back 4 probably picks itself (Suga, KWP and two out of THB, Jan and Jack) the other decision is who plays the Mainoo role (assuming Flynn is our Declan). I know nothing about big Leslie but assume he'd be first choice in that role.

For anyone having doubts about Maxwell… …I scream Cornet