Frank's cousin

This is part of the problem though Smirking - the way we use terms like Multiculture to compartmentalise - all of a sudden it Multiculturalism that is part of the problem - which is just a 'nicer' way of saying multi ethic which is the problem, which is just a step away from blaming all our problems on the immigrants. I hate words like Multiculturalism as it means nothing - we a country made up of peoples born here and people who have come to work here, simple. They may bring cultures, religions and habits good and bad in our eyes, but that is where it ends. Whenver someone says, 'but they dont want to integrate into our culture blah blah... I ask them to define 'our culture' - they usually go on about 'Christian country' - which is when I ask them about teh last time they went to church.... the point being that its usually a religeous issue and yet thevast majority in the UK do NOT activeliy embrace their 'Christian culture'....

He faces a problem though there Pap, Dune was banned for his blatent racist posts... which would sort of undermine any rational argument he tries to make on here.

The issue is obviously bigger than just immigration - watch those 'Kavos' type shows and it demonstrates exactly some of the differences between young Britons and Young Europeans - the mentality of a generation that demands its rights to do as it pleases and feck everyone else.

Subsidies or not, the Quality of the product still needs to be high enough to create demand for it - British car out put was shied and 10 years out of date which is what killed it. Secondly, as state its NOT about teh cheapest option, I stated clearly there was no difference in cost - the difference was in quality of those providing quotes - all of whom looked liked reputable firms - I am sure teh UK guys would have done a decent job in the smae total of accumulated hours - but could not provide any guarrantees of start or end date - that is a service quality issue, not a money one - read the post before you repsond and if you dont understand, ask questions I will be happy to answer.

Must admit, I find the attitude tfrom some towards high aspirations (whatever the reality) quite dissapointing, especially given the moaning and vitriol shown towards the Duck shooter for showing 'none' From an aspirational perspective, its great - giving up before you even start and creating your own glass ceiling seems to fly against the the very principles of competitive sport - If taking part and feeding at teh prem trough, avoiding relagtion each season is what floats your boat, fair enough, but seems defeatist IMHO. From a practical perspective, its a vicious circle - even with the appropriate money, attracting and keeping the best players needs regular European competition...but to get regular European competition you need to be able to attract the and keep the best players and be able to afford them. The Status of the club can not be ignored - and our status can not be changed without regular success over a long period of time, no one would deny that. The odds are against us achieving anything of the like, massively against us, even if we did have substantial funding available, but ASPIRING towards better days is surely to be welcomed rather than ridiculed? Those laughing, tend to be those that dont want 'smaller clubs' taking a spot reserved for what they consider to the rightful spot of a 'bigger' club - some might say they are frightened of the competition

If this is NCs endgame, it wont be whilst we ar still not guarranteed to survive - it will b when he have demonstrated real progress in the prem - we will be worth more and be more attractive to investors.... surely?

Ha hahhaaa - FAIL Read my post again - he had an OPTION to either complete TWO contracts in a week, OR one and then take 3 or 4 days off.... him taking on 2 jobs and delivering on both is the nature of competition in a free market economy no? I am not saying its ultimately an ideal, but its one of the principles of a capitalist society in which we live. So what car do you drive and who made your washing machine? Come on? Its no good responding saying there is no longer a choice unless you have money for an Aston Martin, as teh reason there is no choice is because we were crap at manufacturing productively, despite engineering excellence in this country - the competition killed our industry because it was better - if we get Brit builders unemployed because teh competition is better, what is the difference? My chap did not undercut on price, but on quality of service... right or wrong that is the reality, and as a consumer I dont want to have no choice or have to put up with poor quality just to keep a lazy shiet builder in business. The better quality UK trademen will always have work - its those that cant up their game/quality to the expected standards that will suffer...

Point being that if such practice was illegal as it is in many other EU countries, then it would not happen. One of the attractions of UK s that you can find such housing...

Always depends on a few simple things.... 1. Develop enough talent of the hihest quality that STAYs for several seasons - not sold at 17/18 2. Be able to attract good players that can compete at that level 3. Be able to afford to pay good players that can compete at that level the wages they could get at other clubs 4. have a manger who can get that blend right, has innovative tactical nous. Simple! Seriously odds are v low - but its less about the reality IMHO and more about the desire/ambition being more than just platitudes - ultimately, provided we dont dig a huge financial hole for ourselves and create a legacy of debt, then TRYING to deliver this is going to a lot of fun, even if it never happens - Clubs like Eveton etc have shown its possible to cyclically get that combination right - and in theory, there is nothing stoppoing others from also getting it right. What we need to understand though is that IF we ever did get it all right and have a tremendous season, it would be cyclical, as players in that higher shop window leave and we start again... could live with that.

1. Ha ha ha - The classic argument finally surfaces - There would be NO chance of the Romanian getting a job, IF the Brit competition was up to the same standard... its the same with anything I buy, be it Meile Washing machine, or a German car - Had they not beeen far superior, maybe we would still have an industrial base producing quality manufactured goods - but we destroyed that ourselves through strikes and lack of investment... so do you only buy British? 2. Read my post again - you simply dont understand the difference between and employer exploiting an employee and a self employed tradesman deciding how and when he works - I should add, the Romanian chap also mentioned that in addition to having the option to do two jobs in a week, he also used the 'saved time' to spend time with his family at times ensuring a decent work/life balance.... try to comprehend before you reply this time....

I understand... I guess though that withut the 'parent company' we would not have had an SFC. In a way, I am glad the FL did do what they did, as it means we can not be accused of 'circumnvigating the rules'.

1. I dont believe it is libel BS, as I did not accuse you of being anything, merely repeating stuff that is quite common in the literature from those organisations. 2. Not sure what you mean here, that sentance does not really make sense - anyone can have an opinion on migration, but it should be an informed opinion given the complexity of the situation and the level of blatent ignorance spouted suggests most do not have an informed opinion. 3. No different to those who save and spend their money abroad as retired folk in France or Spain - the emmigration figures are quite high you know... these folk have paid their tax and NI here, but are now spending their pensions abroad...which does not benefit this country - these things balance out, as with many Brits who work abroad and pay their tax locally. 4. True some is lost, but a far greater loss of revenue is through tax avoidance - at the highest income level, relative to that, the amount sent 'home' AFTER tax and NI is paid is relatively small.... 5. The Working Time directive is designed to PROTECT employees from unscruplous businesses from exploiting workers - something that the UK is not wholly signed up to anyway. I agree with teh EU working time directive, BUT it shoudl also be up to an individual should he chose to, to work as he sees fit - I did not demand this work was done in 3 days - he could have spent 5 or 6. He chose to do it so that he could earn twice as much. The choice I made was because he could give me a start and guarranteed completion date, something his British counterparts could not - and they wanted money up front, which surprized me and there were no materials they needed to purchase....

Fair enough... but the issue here is not with the immigranst but with the land loard who is exploiting them. The housing shortage in this country is not down to immigrants- its simply down to NO investmnet in public housing for the last 40 years and the sell off by most of the stock by first Maggies and then subsequent governments....

The inaccuracies in this rubbish are obvious - it was a bathroom, not a kitchen.... he paidf tax and NI - more than Brits, he lived local buying cloths, food, car, paying rent etc... all payments into the local economy. If he chooses to save and take money back home - well he has earned the right to do so, as do ex pats who reture abroad and take their savings and cash with them... there is no diffrence - stop being ignorant, naive and reading BNP/UKIP propoganda....

Only because just like here, its easy to blame our economic and social problems on the immigrants and the weak - well in the words of the great Iris Dement song 'Wasteland of the Free' - ''that sounds like some kind of Hitler remedy'' - If enough people remain balanced and seek out the truth rather than listening to the Right Wing propoganda then it wont happen. Discussion about immigration is welcomed and it is an important and difficult issue - but it can not take place when you have too many with prejudiced and illinformed views on the base don no factual evidence that is spouted constantly by the Daily mail and its ilk

And most would agree these seem logoical and reasonable concerns - where there are genuine PRACTICAL reasons for quotas etc, I dont believe anyone has a huge problem - if these can be aplied failrly and without prejudice. BUt teh reality is actually totally different to what is a common msconception about the 'drain' on infrastructure and resources - its is simply not true that we have 'millions more claiming' - most work and pay tax and NI so qaulify for any social services they receive - which is more than expat retired folk in Spain and France do... I agree that there should be a system that ensures you only qualify for benefits IF you are paying into the system, with a caveat that yo cant turn ill folk away form medical treatment that is needed - the fact we dont is something that does make me proud of this country.

...

Typicalll illinformed reaction - 1. House prices are not impacted on by most immigration as most rent with alonger aim of returning to their homelands when they have earned (and paid tax) enough to buy in their ****ry 2. Most never stay until pension age - and if they do, they only qualify because they have PAID IN to the system.... pension cost are rising because we have a rapidly aging population and had a period in the 80s and 90s when many higher tax payers retured at 55 and 60.... 3. Social security tends NOT to go up as most young people who come here work - and do not claim. The impact on unemployment is negliable and the levels of immigrats as a percentage of the total claiments is small. 4. Wages are not driven down. I am not talking about unskilled labour - and exploitation of this by unscrupulous BRITISH businesses. I am talking about people with skills doing jobs to the same and better standards than their Uk counter parts. Example: 3 years ago I had a new bathroom fitted. I had 3 inclusive quotes for the plumbing, some minor alterations, tiling and finishing (I had purchased all good and materials) All quotes were teh same in the region of £1500. The only difference was the one froma Romanian guy who would do all himself in 3 days - the 2 british firms estimated 1 -2 weeks depending on when they could get the tiler in and then plumber back to complete. I went with teh Romanian guy who worked from 7 in the morning to 8 at night for 3 days and did an amazing high spec finish. His reason - hes aid he could do 2 fittings in a week and thus save more (AND PAY Twice the tax into our system as the Brits).... I am also talking about nurse, doctors, professionals who expect and receive the same levels of wages as UK folk and pay into teh system - we benefit from that.

To be fair - it is a case of legal semantics, and I am Ok with taking our punish ment for going into admin - what I would say though is that there shoudl be a BIG distinction between a club like PFC that blew 400mil odd on chasing a footballing dream, on players, agents etc, and one that was determined to provide an infrastructure legacy - our debt was the stadium, and but for a single season of 'risk taking' on a 6 mil spend, chance are we would not have gon into admin at all... we had the relegation clauses, we had no borrowings for players and wages, we had been well run financially all that time - and ironically it contributed to our downfall, as others around us improved by spending cash they did not have - the example of why points deductions for admin take place - we dont need to argue that morally we gained NO advantage from admin, we did not enter admin from over spendingfor years on players and wages chasing an unfair sporting advantage, desparted for prem success or survival - one silly punt at promotion by those well intentined but naive and it was enough to sink us - and at least we did not take hundreds of local firms with us... Aviva will have had back close to 100% of the initial borrowings by now, with only Barclays taking an agreed hit - and I daresay they are kicking themselves now.... so yes we deserved our -10, but to be lablled in teh same category as those that go bust chasing a dream is simply wrong.... unless we do the same in future

Well that depends on how productive you would like our economy to be - improved productivity is a good thing no? And it might just might get the 'average Brit' to pull his socks up. The problem with the 'average insular Brit' is that they want it both ways, they dont want some smelly foreign types here showing us up and 'steeling' our jobs, yet were happy in the past to ship them over to do the job no one else wanted.... Its was fine for the UK to have an empire, making many folk rich, through exploitation of minerals and commodities from many nations, yet now others have caught up and are trying to follow the 'Western' model, we tell them we dont want them here... hypocracy at its best. I spent 5 months in Romania in the immediate aftermath of their revolution teaching English to medical students - decent grafting intelligent people (fit ladies) - desperate to see their country advance from an almost middle age rural culture to a modern society. They were prepared to work hard to achieve that and if as a result they have the qualifications, the energy and work ethic that puts the local 'avergae Brit' to shame, then in true ruthless capitalist style, bring them on and lets improve our productivity.... The problem with the Daily Mail mentality over immigration that it focusses on the 5% of freeloaders that come as part of the package - conveniently forgetting the value the vast majority of educated and intelligent folk bring to our economy, let alone our own millions of people happy not to work and live of benefits. The truth is simply not a big enough story - economically we benefit from immigration - the ONLY reason why some are so against it is a nationalistic prejudice, which too often they are too ashamed to admit.

No its not - CoC is a serious business, v serious. Viva La Culto Cortese!!!

Good to see some posts... for a moment there the CoC thread had gone limp...

I know its there, but have yet to find a use for it - I like the personal touch

Only Harris Tweed will do for these.

CoC is merely providing the seeds Tokes. In time they will germinate and we will see a whole new generation of CoC that dominates the fan base, as all come to understand the project and the man delivering it.