Frank's cousin

What I find difficult to understand at the moment is that the Wilde and Lowe seem so quiet.... now maybe they are just reacting to the criticism that they spent too much time in the limelight before, but given out current situation I would have thought some frank open and honest statements might help us understand the real situation rather than having to rely on rumour and gossip. UP you mention the two way relationship - at present its seem there is no relationship - as fans, even those who still go out of pure loyalty - and I susuepct its those that want entertainment + Success as well that have stopped going in the main - are disillusioned and concerned , made worse by negative vibes all over the place - we need someone at the club who understands COMMUNICATYION (Not the the 'PR' placement of a weekly rallying call from this weeks eslected player - how they must dread getting the call up - on the OS), neither the free for all fan forum or radio phonne it etc, but an appropriate, decent honest account of the situation, from anyone who still has either credibilty or an affinity with fans. We need a talisman, a figurehead with which the fans can identify not atempting another 'ralling the troops' rubbish, but a gebuine attempt to LEAD, inspire and importantly manage expectations.... and we dont have such a person either on teh field or in the boardroom and perhaps that is currently a big problem. Whatever we think of 'experiements', the reasons be it financial or naivety, that we are in this situation, one thing we as fans should at least try and do is be realistic. We have seen the constant tit-for-tat on here about our problemsa nd the team and the arguments for anad against the 'ideal' and 'strategy etc, but at the end of the day some realism might help us all reflect on what i actually important and what is not. We have (for whatever reason good or bad) a side - a young side that if rumours be true are also not happy - that is inconsistent at best. We ALL know that a young side will be inconsistent and that we ned to maybe understand that whetehr we agree or not with how we got where we are, the personalities, politics and egos that have placed us where we are, teh feck ups and tantrums that have contribuited,... if we are to have any hope of turning any ind of playing corner we need to at least support those who are not teh cause of this - Jan and the kids - for them it was always going to be an uphill battle, naive and inexperienced youth that by its very nature needs time to mature needs our backing more than ever - they need to know we understand that for them its a learning process, and that we aren't going to contribute to the negativity on the pitch by impatience with THEM, that we understand the inconsistency is part of the development of a side and that we TRUST them to do the job - instill confidence and mettle, by showing our own resolve that whatever the 'bastards' in the boardroom or the financial turmoil thorughs at us fans, the TRUE Saints spirit is alive in us fans despite the best efforts of the powerbrokers at the club, and negative fans to extinguish it - If as the popular mantra used to go, 'a club is truely nothing woithout its fans' and that 'we are the club' , then maybe we need to accept that burden of responsibilty and live up to it depsite the misery inflicted by those in power? The kids may have been thrust early into a 'mans' game, but by sticking to fingers in the direction of the Directors box and then getting on with the positive support we ARE capable of (we have proven this so many times when faced with the sh!t) we might just get these kids to the point where they can deliver more often than not. Is that really too much to expect from fans of this club?

One thing we do constantly overlook - and this is in no way removeing 'blame' or not recognising mistakes made etc.... but we make out like we are victimised - the only club ever to go through a period of sh!t - jeez its happened to all clubs in tehir history and will continue to happen to many more - this generation is just not used to it and what makes it worse is that the game is now so dominated by the prem millions that makes it more difficult - but have we really lost sight of the fact that ultimately this is sport - a game with divisions in a league system which means each year there are promotions and relegations - Its the mark of a fan base in how they respond to the crap more so in how they respond to the success (which is easy) - please say we have not forgetten these simple fundementals of this game?

UP. Re the manager being given a budget and handling wages etc - The trouble is that we have seen this system systematically abused and although its been tricky to make allegations stick, we all knmow the brown envelopes are legendary - The system has gotten alot worse, with agents fuelling the market - Could Mr Redknapp explain the need to make some 125 transfers in 5 years at West Ham? of which only 30 odd vere made a 1st team appearence? (Tom Bowers ) - the vast sums of money and nature of negtiations as a result, goes way beyond the often naive transfer dealings of the past - and to expect Managers, to do this as well is often asking to be taken for a ride? Of course they should still identify players etc for both ins and outs - but that is only possible if the cahirman TRUSTS that the manager is making these decions on purely footballing terms and not on agent 'recommendations'. Its a sad state of affairs, but i think Lowes biggest problem is that he simply does not TRUST these financials which are inexcess of 60% of turnover to someone who is probably not qualified. And I think its fair to say that whilst not a universal truth, he is probably in some case justified in that. Unfortunately its the impact of that situation on the managers ability to their job - although I will add this caveat; For me teh greatest managers are those that can improve waht they have - it may not be possible to make a silk purse, but it should certainly be possible to see improvement if working correctly with coaches and the development teams - The CONSTANT cry from 'old school' managers that they ned the freedom to by players THEY want is wearing a little thin and sound smore like an excuse for failure to coach properly - afterall we have all seen managers spend millions and get no improvement or regress! I do think football needs to take a long hard look at why it lets itself be ruled by outdated concepts - that worked well in the age of the gentlemen chairman and manager, but seem perpetuated today my myth. Many argue that you only need to look at the success that Alex Ferguson has had to see this - but he dosen't get ivolved in contract negotiations and setting of wages. He has had success because a) hes actually very good, B) lucky to be at a club that is aspirational for players so the best youth stay and its easier to bring players to the club, C) Luck in the early days in that his job was saved - ironically by 5 youth players that came through at the same time.... not alot to do with being able to control the purse strings. Its ironic that the vey best managers at the top clubs dont actually need to worry abut that side of things and can concentrate on the side. As I say you only have to look at the sheer crap our managers have bought over the years to see why someone of Rupert's Ilk would be horried at teh thought of letting them loose with a budget - however little or much he has learned about the game, surely you can see his point? Especially in the current financial climate....

This is all anyone should ask for. I dont think there is anyone on the so called Lowe side who is actually on the LOwe side... sorry hear me out - There are those that see no relence is persoanl attacks or or rumour and gossip being used to beat the board - as its a distraction and actually merely entrenches Lowes own views towards fans rtaher thatn seeing them as potentially making constructive points. Lowe has made plnty of error IMHO, some of which merit the desire to see change, but I simply dont see how making personal attacks contributes to that - nor to improving the situation. Its really that simple.

NOt quite sure what this statement has to do with the post in this thread, but hey why let that worry you. I stand by the fact that all I have seen is Bassett hint at Lowe wanting the club to play more kids... which is not what many would call interference.... and today we see that retratcted anyway so tell where the evidence is of 'Lowe picking the side' - as there is none - which as stated last week - none on BOTH sides .... but What confuses me nmost is this glee some fans semm to have whenever there is something new and controversial .... as if the fragile nature of the club is not bad enough, there is from some quarters as desire to make it worse and teh perception that they are enjoying seeing that happen. Anyone could be forgiven that some that post on here actually support those down the road....

Talk about storm in a feckin teacup.... Jeez, rightly or wrongly lowe thought that spending on the academy was the wya forward - we know he hates parting with loads of money for over expensive players and especially on wages - nothing new there, I also believe he felt, again rightly or wrongly, that the only way we could compete and progress was through developing the ebst young talent, that hopefully had an added element of loyalty, rather than spending our way to improvement with monet we did not have. In addition he wanted to give us an advantage by state of the art sports science under SCW - that was the theory anyway. And as theories go its not that bad an idea. So why the feck is nayone surprised that he 'wanted' saints to play more youngsters? whether for their development or as a shop window - who cares? but the idea that its just shop window is a bit churlish, afterall we the first playesr shipped out were the big earners, not the kids...but thats another debate. It failed for several reasons: 1. Lowe did not recognise that in the prem, you need annual improvement just to stand still - which means increasing the quality by signing nbetter players season on season - because everyone else is doing the same - those that dont get relegated. I dont like this situtaion as its driven by greed mostly and agents driving a profit from tyeh merry-go-round of playesr, and whats worse it does not allow many teams to bring through kids and establish a ssettled side, but thats the situation so we needed to at least do our bit in that department. - There is simply not enough time in a season for a side to bring in youngsters wholesale irrespective of the good ideals of homegrown players. 2. The 'laughingstock' media frenzy - never gave teh SCW thing a chance - it rubbed off on fans - and up against an old scvhool mentality it was never going to be given a proper chance 3. Confusion: LOwe failed to adequately communicate the responsibilties - coupled wioth Rednapp who was NEVER going to be receptive it became a mess 4. The IRONY ; Why the feck did Lowe bring in such an old school veteran as Harry to work with his 'innovative vision'? - Panic to save us from relegation 'for sure' - but even Lowe must have known he was going to feck up his strategy? I am not surprised though at the current frenzy of excitement generated by the HOunds comments - LOwe's return was only ever going to cause divisions and only a miracle of say us now sitting in the top two would have shut up the decension - well maybe not from all- but you know what I mean. BUt FFS is any of it really surprizing? There seems to be this almost frenzied glee from some that there is another alledged stick to beat our club, rather than dissapointment that we have another row that is undermining the fragility of the current situation. 'look at me, look at me.. I was right and Lowe's an interferring co*k afterall' .....er well sorry, but irrespective of the truth or otherwise in Bassetss claims, I dont think ANY of our mess is something to celebrate.

Even if taking the satdium loan out of this equation as its kind of a mortgage - its would still be around 10 mil. so add the purchase price which would inevitably rise to probably 15 mil (give the minimum they would need to offer LOwe, Wilde and Crouch and that the regulations mean you have to offer the same to everyone) It would cost at leats 25 mil + the need of a minimum of say 10 mil to cover the increasing losses and stabalise the ship over say 2 years? without any team investment so despite what teh share price says we are realistically looking for someone with a minimum of around £35-40 mil in cash (not loans or VC money which needs a return/interest) to make any deal work - Wilde has stated he would never sell to someone merely as a change in ownership, only if there is a genuine cash injection that will help enable change. So suddenly we can see why there are no genuine takers...especially when you consider the side would need at least 5-10 mil investmnet in players to make us genuine contenders - with no guarrantees - afterall we tried that spending 7 mil under Wilde/Crouch/Burley and thay did not work...

For some its more complicated though. You can disagree with some aspects of what is being done, or even agree in the approach but acknowledge that if it dont = points and teh revenues are falling, someting is far from right - If anything we shouold be looking to take the personalities OUT of the equation and debate the strategic and tactical implementation as ultimately these either work or not irrespective of who inititated them...

JS Whilst we may disagree on many things, I think this is by far the BEST and most balanced post from the 'stay away' perspective/POV. I just wish all those on your side of the debate posted in such an intelligent way as I believe then the debate could be had in the good spirit that does exist between the vast majority of fans, despite differing opinions. I would argue that consistently Lowe' biggest mistkaes are IMHO, not the things he has tried, or the strategy he has hoped will work - I believe in trying new things - but in his inabilty to admit he got it wrong and above all LISTEN to his customers - whether I agree with staying away, or with the idea of kids and 'total football' or not, or even if I believe the cost cutting is necessary and thus so is the need to use youth.... is frankly irrelevent - In this case my opinion in being generally supportive of the princilple of youth development at a time when we are skint - and of going as often as I can - counts for nothing, because the facts remain that no matter what arguments are put forward, gates are falling and so are revenues at the very time we need it most. I am prepared to say that LOWE NEEDS TO WAKE UP AND LISTEN TO THE FANS, THE CUSTOMERS, SWALLOW HIS PRIDE AND ADMIT THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION because the loss of revenue and support on match days will only increase our problems. If he believes in Jan, give him some support, if he cant see that just kids is relegation form, then surely those around him need to stand up and be counted and point out the bleedin obvious whilst we still have time on our side - when in the mire the season is very short and the games run out very quickly. I am sympathetic to the ideals of the strategy, I very idea that if by some bloody miracle the kids keep us up and we keep the side together, they would be all the stronger next season, but that is wishful thinking, even if a sound ideal. The reality is a lot harsher and Lowe if he really does want tis club to progress (and his equity rise) needs to start to LISTEN.

Could be that its impossible for the YTS chefs to get the recipe right because several ingredients are missing (too expensive), so they are trying new ideas - some work some dont and whether you come back for more depends on hether yu believ that they will get better or go bust as customer numbers dry up? This is a great example though of whow wierd it is being a fan - had we played exactly the same, but without that defensive error and Euell had scored - the general feeling would probably been one of 'not bad getting the points when we did not play that well' (is that not the mark of a good side?), and a feeling of things looking up with 7 points out of 9 in the last 3 games... same as one victory does not mean we changed a corner, this defeat does not mean we are doomed.

True its easy to forget that - and a shiocking fact when you think about iot - we had all this 'experience', yet stll in the same boat!

I would probably agree with teh majority more, if there was at least an acknowledgement, that just because something fails does not make it wrong to try. I think its perfectly valid to accept that the reasons for Lowes decisions are NOT purely footballing based. I think he would probably have tried this idea even if it were NOT for financial reasons - he has always fancied himself as someone who could/should/would be able to 'revolutionise' the coaching and management structure of the English game - be it SCW and the 'science' or his ideas on youth development and DOF/Head coach set up. I believe he has always fancied himself as the man to bring A Amsterdam model to Saints and believe thats why he wanted Hoddle back before, someone who was happy coaching and developing youth rather than managing by cheque book - Lowes likes to control the purse strings as we all know. Now my dilemma is this. If I take Lowe completely out of the equation, and take a club of our size in the prem, steady mid table and breaking even, what does one do to maintatin that? The current crop due to the ever spiralling cost of players and wgaes seem to be borrowing money and increasing debts or rely on the desired sugar daddy - Lowes answer was not to join the debt race and develop our own kids.... Now froma purist logical perspective, that is not a bad way to go - avoid debt and develop talent - trouble is its a long term thing and the moment you stop improving the squad as everyone else is doing (funded usually through debt) you begin to lag behind and eventually panic and relegation - its a very fine line. Thats where Lowe dropped the biggest boll**k IMHO, the failure to continue to provide investment with experienced players whilst the youngsters develop. I feel kinda sad about it really, because I LIKE the idea. I dislike the way the prem and the Sky millions have driven clubs into the ever increasing need to spend just to stand still, and I have to say irrespective of any pros or cons of Lowe as a chairman, I can see the logic. I can also understand that as fans seeing the theory is one thing, if its fails then it was wrong and its a big mistake so Chairmen carries the can. Whether its right or wrong that as fans we have no patience or are sceptical of new approaches, given that the majority of us are Traditionalists generally (and the media reinforce that that is the only way to go - given that media is full of pundits who themselves are traditionalists etc....), the fact reamisn thats how we are and thats how it is. Failure to ensure your key supporters are shown the ambition we see as our right means any new ideals or strategy which stutters or takes time is doomed to be ridiculed if set up in isolation of the core business of ensuring points on the board. That is where the board failed - does that mean they should be given the abuse that was handed out? Probably not, but then they are thick enough skinned anyway. Which brings us to the NOW and another experiment - this time out of financial necessity (yet probably exactly as Lowe has always wanted to see it done) - and we see almost the same pattern emerging - optimists like myself who see the logic hioping not to be let down, whilst secretly acknowledging that the nature of the game is likely to render it very rapidly to the wastebasket of history - there are also many in football who will be happy - those gorging themselves on the money and the new order, dont like upstarts who are threatening the 'way its always been'. So on to Jan and who would have appointed him? Well from what I have seen, I certainly would recommend him as a coach probably at youth development and resverve level as the style he likes to play (well originally at teh seasons's start anyway) is a positive thing - perhaps the one positive thing we have right now which the desire to see a passing game. He has presented himself with dignity and professionalism and does not deserve to be made the scapegoat for a plan that is not working as well as all involved hoped it would - perhaps naively, perhaps because we had no other choice, but the faith in it has long since evaporated. Sad, but nonetheless true.

Sorry UP, but you have perhaps misunderstood me hre (maybe my fault for hiding things in long winded posts...;-)) I have never said that being worried or caring about the club is NEGATIVE or VITRIOLIC or unrealistic now, In fact its perfectly rationale to be concerned about and care now as it was yesterday... the difference is not the caring but the vitriol with which this is expressed both now and yesterday. I guess I am saying you can care, be concerned and even angry, without it effecting the way you support the side, or without irrational bitterness based on what in many cases is speculation... All I have changed my mind on is that for me personally, I feel that given the 'financial crisis' and the inevitable cost cutting, etc, the fact we have many home grown kids and a coach who despite probably crap money (relatively) and limited resources, and fan indifference is actually trying to get the kids playing in a positive attacking passing game - So the very least I can do is get behind him and the lads and support the club the way i can.... and yes encourgae others to do so as well, as unless someone has aheap of cash with which to buy out Lowe and Wilde the reality is there is feck all we can do....and I am merely presenting th idea that right now there is perhaps no other way? For sure, once again we get crap communication and limited info so we feel taken for granted...blah blah etc, but how many of us would listen and believe him even if they came out and told us the truth? Like I said, is it possible that the current situation is driven by necessity and in that way Lowe s perfect for the job, so thick skinned and arrogant he is doing it despite it ruining what little standing he had left with some fans? Are we not in this mess in teh first place because the previous regime were too worried about their image with fans thn about what was in th best interests of teh clubs finances? I DONT KNOW the answer tothis, merely posing the question, because from where I ma standing there is abot the same level of evidence for this being accurate as the rest of the rubbish spouted on here about the board. So you can see my confusion?

I m affraid I have noe, but does anyone have any that says its true from the other side? I ont think so...;-) I guess thats the point

I agree that its important that any future 'initiative' learns from previous experiences, but should this negative one stop those wanting to from trying? Snowballs, I know you wont believ it, but hand on heart I did not get involved in all that to somehow be in the know - I kinda expected that we would not learn very much that could be comunicated and that the agreement from Wilde to take part was very much because he felt he would get something out of it, but I did welcome the opportunity to actually meet the guy and find out for myself what he was like. I had been very cybical towards him when he turned up initially and I wanted to see for myself whether I was right or wrong. I guess what has always bugged me about many fans is that we dont distinguish between the personality and the what they are actually doing. Mike Wilde I guess is probably a reasonable guy, has family like most and wants the best for them and himself - yet because we dont agree with the way he has used his shares in the club and thus the way he has acted froma clubs perspective, fans seem hell bent on making out hes the second devil after Lowe. I have not agreed with many of the decisons the club has made under Lowe, Wilde or Crouch, some I could understand but IMHO still thought they were wrong, same as now i guess, I like the idea of what the club is trying given the finances, but it is perhaps wrong, not because it might not work, but because of the split it causes amongst the fans - should all deciisons be made with the fans in mind? NO, but some should even if we dont agree. With respect to the current situation, many are angry as they feel Lowe is 'interfering' - well I think alot depends on the definition of the word. Is he picking the side and tactics? NO, is he taking training? No, Is he telling JPP what to do? NO. But Its a pretty good guess he is controlling signings and sales right now. Why? Because he would probably argue that given the current financial crap we are in sales inparticular will happen for NON-FOOTBALLING reasons despite what it means for JP and his squad. Now I can understand why this might make ALL fans angry because it directly interferes with the situation on the pitch, but from a club survival perspective, surely it makes sense to do what is necessary regardless of how unpopular it may be? I guess in some respects what I am saying is that, right now perhaps Lowe is the right man for teh job, purely because his ego is so big and he does not give a flying feck what gans think when he makes the unpopular but perhaps necessary decisions? Thats just speculatio of course, but I am just trying to illustrate the alternative view. If that hyperthetical thought was correct then it would support the rationale for having a continental style coach who is used to having players arrive and leave and get on with the coaching of what is available? Was this instigated to ensure the 'manager' did not go ape when players were sold/arrived without his control... it would be logical. Some will say because it suits their purpose that its alll because of ego, but it is just as likely or possible thats its beacuse of necessity? I dont know the answer because I have never had the cahnce to ask Lowe directly, or know him well enough to judge the truth in a response - and nor do 99.99% of those that post on here with their opinion which they see as 'fact' - purely because its what they believe as opposed to what they actually know. That is the frustraing bit about seeing fans rip each other apart based on opinion formed with minimal knowledge... its very sad really as we all want to see the very best from the side and see the club suceed - its only a very very small minority that would rather see us fail than succeed with the current set up, but many more are disillusioned and angry with it because of opinions formed on speculation. I guess this could be summed up the following hyperthtical situation: Say the current chairman was Ted Bates and afterall he done for the club, he had bought it back in the 80s - but as his money ran out and we had a succession of managers that did not work out, we were relegated and found ourselves in the same situation fi9nancially as we do now, the same coaching set up etc but with teh same stuttering inconsistency. Would we be resenting him as a chairman? Or would his past and the respect that deserves, mask any current flaws? Are we judging the current situation based on finances on Lowe's previous feck ups and our general dislike for him, rather than rationally assessing the logic of the strategy?

TBH Stanely, think what you like, I dont need your sympathy ( really not sure how you work this out BTW?). I am happy with my part in all this - only raised it again as response to a question rom UP, naturally, would have preferred it to have had a more positive outcome, but hey you live and learn... also at the end of the day this is Football FFS, .... in the grand scheme of things its seems that the resentment and bitterness expressed by a few is vastly inflated given what we are talking about...

In response to the 'news' and how we reacted... Firstly, as was mentioned by those involved the intention was clear - to talk, listen and report back. Upon meeting it was made clear that it was to be inconfidence - do you walk away? I can see an argumnet for that, but it seems churlish and perhaps naive to miss an opportunity - Dont forget this was meant to be the first of many - an initial introduction. The fact that Mr Wilde was prepared in confidence to sus us out on some things which at the time were not really considered likely i should add - was indeed 'news' but considering there was a hope that these meetings would continue, does anyone really think it would have been a good idea to ignore the confidentiality request? That is a mtter of principle whatever 'Stanley' is insinuating. NO one really thought it was worth reporting to be honest as it seemed so far fetched - what was more interesting at the time given al the takeover talk, was that Wilde himself was not prepared to sell simply for a change of ownership, -eg to parties who were going to fund a purchase via refinancing the club etc - eg show us the money or here's your coat. I find it rather sad that there are fans out their who seem so bitter that something was tried - fair enough if you feel it was naive or misguided, but the intentions were always honorable. It failed, so what, did the world end? Judging by some of the comments it would appear so.... and I really cant work out why all the bitterness Given the opportunity to speak with Lowe, Wilde or Crouch again, I would go and talk and listen again. Why? because I believe its easier and better to form an opinion and make a judgement only when as fully informed as possible, not before, or by listening to gossip, hearsay or rhetoric. Its interesting though that any say it was highly naive. Maybe in the ideal of having a long term impact true, but then again, was it wrong to assume that these guys might listen, if fans perspectives were discussed in a calm, rational and constructive manner, rather than with the acid vitriol that often accompanies fan forums etc... Passions can easily run high and we wanted simply to avoid that scenario? We were not naive in understanding that we would be spun a yarn and that it would be also about what Wilde got from us... but, I learned something about him that day which was part of the excercise. So given what was said - and in hindsight agreed it was PRETTY BIG NEWS - should we have said feck it and disclosed the lot? Well that really depends on your own opinion on whether it was worth breaing the promise for - your own levels of when the information is of more interest than your principle. Personally, given we are talking football, I and the others independently must have reached the same conclusions - it was not, especially as mentioned that it did not seem a likely outcome. I also believe its a shame that one or two folk are so resentful of the idea - I hope it does not deter those who have an opportunity to talk directly with directors form doing so in future, publically or privately as only with such meetigs can you really start to build a picture of what these guys are like.... and thus form an informed opinion. As Ron said, its dead, it achieved nothing and its past - and was only brought up as UP asked a question about it and I have no shame in responding, nor do I feel embarrassed about its failure. As others have said - you can often learn as much from failure as you can from success.... I will reiterate, I dont believe any of those taking part did so to be ITK - as teh subsequent posts will have shown - and being in the dammed if you do damned if you dont position made us all uncomfortable.... but I will also freely admit that having the opportunity did massage the ego - and that IS just being honest.

The trouble was Snowballs2, that the rock and hard place scenario was there... do you acknowledge that its in effect a waste of time due to the spin we knew we would get and thus turn down the offer? Or try and use it as an exercise to actually get to know someone first hand, listen and then analyse without the prejudice of previous experience or hearsay and gossip? No one was arrogant, just hopeful that something might be learned, if thats arrogant (?) or naive sobeit, but its hardly harmful... Given the overwhelming support Wilde had from the majority (myself NOT included) when he ousted Lowe, I wanted to see for myself what he was all about... just because not everyone had the chance to do that, should I have turned it down? I am sure you have plenty of quotes from that time, but I daresay they are aspirational and hopeful, rather than naive, and they certainly are not arrogant - I dont recall anyone saying this WOULD be a solution, but merely a start of dialogue which we HOPED MIGHT prove useful... in the end it did not, but why was it wrong to try? Wilde did actually tell us truth: 1) he Lowe thinking about joining up - not hopeful crouch would accept 2) European Coach /set preferred due to finance - Youth the future 3) Wilde not interested in selling out to someone with no money or having to borrow to fund the purchase - simply changing ownership with no additional funds pointless 4) Longterm - hopeful that assets could be utilised to provide additional income to the football club - but long term projects. Just asked us not to discuss publically.... you live and learn.

What the feck? Where has anyone suggested anyone should feel 'sorry' for us? 'greedy aspirations'? ******... we knew we would be spun a line, does that make it wrong to try and read between the lines? Just because we were being spun a line, does it make it wrong to at the very least stick to our principles and not divulge info that was asked not to be divulged? The fact that it went no further is a sad but not unexpected, but does it make it wrong from trying? No one is whinging, but I was responding to a question from UP - what in unfecking believable is your post because you seem rather bitter?

UP Unfortunately you may have interpreted my post outside the spirit in which it was intended... and perhaps been oversensitive to my comment. So in answer I would make the following points: 1. I have no gripe with those concerned about the behind the scenes stuff - but have come to realise that the only REAL way I can help is by spending my cash and supporting the team. ... and unsurprisingly have discovered that given that there is a desire amongst the coaching set up to play a passing game - despite what that means in the hurly burly of the CCC (and I am not about to do a Wenger on that front) - its actually far more enjoyable than watching the journeymen plod around the park that we could afford with the 'experience' tag...and I am just trying to advocate this improved enjoyment - something that we should be perhaps even more grateful for given the issues off the pitch. 2. With respect to te SOS situation... yup I was involved, albeit briefly and did and do 'care' - if that is the right word - and got involved because a) I was asked , b) it appelaed to my ego (hey just being honest) but perhaps most importantly 3) that Given the opportunity it would have been churlish to turn it down - eg talk is all fine, but action etc... The problem is that that exercise was a classic in 'being used'. It is no surprize that only 1 audience was granted - because it suited the cause to meet with 6 fans some of which were considered to have influnce on the fan forum, and be sounded out on the idea of a Lowe/Wilde colaboration and the European Coach etc.... at the time the idea that at least 2/3 would be prepared to work together was appealing, but we actually got feck all out of it...apart from in hindsight appreciating that these guys should not be underestimated... they are sharp, clever and resourceful and will sue all means to ensure they get what THEY want. Cynical? not really, REALISTIC. I think the naive dream of a local Business type who caries the altruistic vison of the fans on his sleave is something we should forget about. Ideally I also believe that rather than wasting energy swimming against the tide, if fans want to influence the way things are going and the club is run, the only way to do this is work colaboratively with eyes open all the time, but establishing a dialogue that is constructive, no matter what is thrown back - its the way to the higher moral ground and would be supported by all - what I cant support is the vitriol and bitterness - negative energy that gets us nowhere and effects both the enjoyment of those going to games and can impact on all aspects of the club... not just the boardroom at which is it aimed... So as I no longer have an opportunity to be involved in constructive initiatives, its far better to focus on what I can do = supporting the side as best I can and as much as time and money will allow. Just my current opinion I guess. 3. If I am really honest, you do like to pick isolated sentences from posts though and feeback on these - and although you make alot of good sense in your reply, it is a bit frustrating in that often when taken in isolation the sentences being critiqued or responded to, no longer make the same point as when part of the whole paragraph etc... which does tend to get my goat a bit ... ;-)

I think it fair to assume that had Pearson stayed, that he would still have had to work with the kids as the Lowe/wilde/NorthKorea axis of evil would still have got rid of the high earners - so would Pearson have done any better with the kids?

...not quite sure we should class Rupes as a 'celeb' though.... ;0)

Jeez UP, you dont half get in deep in the post analysis matey - 'heavy man' ;-)

Its actually very very simple - forget the small minority that sem far more interested in who is in the boardroom WHATEVER happens on te pitch - by that I mean those who hated Lowe even when we were at Cardiff - it all comes down to something far more important for the vast majority of the fans - If we are winning and doing weel and playing entertaining football, no one gives a flying feck who is in the board oonm which is as it should be...lose , relegation, admin, and no one lowe, wilde, crouch, whoever would be seen as anything but a negative influence - which is again as it should be. What complicates things for us is that there is still bitterness about perceived past feck ups. Whether Lowe, Wilde or Crouch, so when things are going well, there are still many who would never give any credit to the board - yet are happy to stick the boot in when we lose... For me its now a simple choice as I am simply fed up with worrying about, arguing anysides case or even spelling out what I think the reasons are why we should be right no focussed on the pitch, not the boardroom, because to be honest everyone on here is very much determined to stick with their opinion and thats it, no matter how good or strong argument either side can deliver - no one listens on both sides. No, right now, I am loving the simple fact that we have a coach who speaks Dutch, has a certain naive honesty about him, and is trying to get average (in most cases) kids playing a slick passing style - whatever the resource restrictions, have we ever heard Jan moan about it like Harry did? NO, has he ever made cliched excuses? not from my perspective. The kids for teh most part are trying as best they can, and so is Jan, against the odds in my book and whats more they are trying to play teh game as it should be played. Considereing everything else that has happened to our club, right now that's pretty darn good in my book and why I am actually enjoying things right now, whatever the results show... Get in there, COYRs!!

..one swallow....ar feck the the negativity - Get in there! :-)