Frank's cousin

Very true, but, the JOurno shhould have been cleverer and posed the question without referring to the finances - which ARE a sensitive issue - I am glad JP answered honestly and have no problem with there being a 'battle of wills' potentially playing out - strong characters(with mutual respect) is what is needed during tough times - afterall what do you expect JP to say? 'no prblem, the prospect of losing my best players fills me with joy'? Remember WGS and LOwe did not always see eye to eye, but as long as the respect is there for WHY certain decisions are taken, even if its not one you would like, then there is no problem... the irony of seeing the JP, whose initial appointmnet was not welcomed by some now being 'supported' because he might also be having a dig at lowe is pretty sad really...

LGSC - top post mate. I guess the thing is with this 'crazy' supporting lark, is that we get sucked in so easily - we care, It irrational naturally to be so 'in love' with a club that we forget its a game and should be enjoyed... something we choose to do for entertainment and a break form the stresses and strains of the serious things in life. BUt despite all the rat5ional words and 'cold light of day' reality, the passion I guess does take control and spills out of SMS, be it in the joy of victory or the grimness of defeat....it lingers and clouds our better judgement.... and ironically, it actually begins to undermine any enjoymnet we had in the firstplace. Lets all be honest with ourselves for a moment - none of us began supporting saints ina glory chasing lust of of success did we, if we wanted the easy life or desperate desire to be associated with success (sadly like so many) we would ahve simply denied the existence of our local side and opted for Liverpools, Arsenal, Man U or Chelsea (depending which era you were growing up in) - NO we masochists, took the more difficult route, yet without doubt the IMHO the 'right and proper' route - supporting the local side come what may - in 'triumph and disaster' we chose all to be masons (sic) ! Seriously, its is what sorts the men from the boys clamering for success. NO one is denying that the last four years have tried the patience of us saints (sorry), and I have tons of sympathy for those who feel let down, disillusioned and fecked off as regimes have successively failed to live up to our expectations - and I guess that is the crux. Expectations, we have suckled at the premiership /top flight teet for so long, being denied our weekly fix of top flight entertainment and status has left many malnourished. But for all the anger, pain, and misery we feel has been unjustly inflicted upon us by the powers in the boardroom, for all thier foolish ways, mistakes and in our eyes misunderstanding of what a football club is all about - have we not done the same, have we not forgotten what supporting a club such as sainst and the reasons we chose to is all about? Many on here hark back to the joys and wonder of yesteryear in the way the club was run and teh success we achieved against the odds, yet atthe same time deny the ourselves the shear unadulterated and pure reasons for supporting our club - the tradition of supporting your local side whatever division, hard times or sh!te the baord chose to throw at us. As the mantra goes, teh fans are the club, and I really hope that if that is true, the current feeling, is merely a temporary glitch - something that as you point out, the purist approach of developing homegrown talent and getting them to play attractive football will soon consign to the wastebin, as we should be inspired and above all be proud that this club that means so much to so many. COYR Sentimental and over emotional crap? Sure is, but Ithought that was what being a fan was all about! - ;-)

More truth in 3 lines than in 100 posts! Excellent post!

As a stadium, its not worth the investment - might raise 2-3mil and then what - council come along in 5 years and kick us out as they want housing? Bad idea....

I think what needs to made vERY clear to anyone advocating administration as a preferred option is as follows: Administrators act in the interests of Creditors first and for most - to try wherever possible to get them to agree to reduction in net debt - get something or nothing - and hopefully leave a going concern t theend, if they cant find a suitable buyer in the first instance willing to take on the debt - What we need to remember here is that anyone who is currently unwilling to take o the club and 'waiting' for admin to try and get it on the cheap, cant be that loaded, afterall, we you could currently buy the club for about 8 or 9 mil.... Many on here have lamented Lowes inability to recognise that a club is nothing without its fans and he does not have the clubs interests at heart, only his own... Well whatever you think on this one thing is for sure - The Administrators would not give a flying feck about fans, only the creditors... Lowes best option for opersonal gain is footballing success - stability, survival, and long term growth to a premiership return, a return to profit and dividends and better share value - he might as some believe want this purely for ego and personal greed, but if thats the case at least it would deliver the success we crave - Administrators dont give a feck about football, just getting the max for those we owe to. In teh abscence of any body coming forward to take us on with cash in tehir pocket, sticking with 'greedy bastards' who want to suckle at the premiership teet, is by far the best option... the problem is we need to stablise first - and that means continued cost cutting or realisation of assets that someone is actually interested in.

Ar... That would explain it then ;-) Seriously though its at the crux of what I never understood - sure , you dont ahve to like him, his attitude and his approach, you can criticise his mistakes as we see them, but ultimately he wants the exact same as us albeit perhaps for different reasons - whether he can deliver is another matter, but I dont think he can ever be accuse dof not wanting the success we do... just has an odd way of thinking as to how it will be achieved... and is that worth the kind of quite pathetic (considering this is football) hatred?

Just out of interest - given that Lowe is often accused of: 1. Having an ego the size of a planet 2. Holding many fans in contempt 3. in it for personal glory and all he can get out of it financially ....surely logic would dictate that what Lowe wants most of all instead of 'ruining' the club would be promotion .... to satisfy: 1. His ego as teh saviour of Saints 2. A big two fingured 'feck off' to us fans held in so much contempt 3. Bonuses and dividends for him and his shareholding buddies... So can someone please explain the logic behind the opinion that he is simply out to ruin us....?

NOt quite sure about the hysteria - the problem would not appear to be the overdraft, but the continued 'growth of the overdraft' ege expentidure continuing to be greater than income - Now this is apparently a lot lower than it was but effectively the debt is still growingbut be a smaller amount each year. Do we have to sell the kids? NO we may be ASKED/TOLD by the bank to realise some assets in oder to underwrite the growth in losses - The club would have NO choice if teh bank would like us to reduce the overall size of the OD facilty - The bank are also not stupid - the last thing they would want is administration, afterall they make their money by servicing our debt, but they do want to minimise theie exposed risk - If they see the income falling, as in lower gate receipts and no prospect of this increasing, they will demand the asset sale. Now what these assets sold are will depend on many factors - 1) What someone is offering, 2) the current wages etc. We may not have to sell the kids - in fact I would suggest these are the LAST players LOwe would want to sell, whatever some may think he does believe in the youth development policy, he would much rather sell off the older high earners, Rasiak, John, Saga etc - reduce the wage bill and get some money in etc. However its never that simple. NO one may want those players, or the value of offeres may be insignificant so we may need to sell them PLUS one of the better kids.... or an offer might come in for one of the kids at 3-4 mil and we only need to sell ONE of them to keep things stable with the bank... or the top kids may be unsettled by Agent w@nkers - the old - 'can get you 20K a week at a prem club - you could get injured ...carreer ...blah, blah blah...' so they want to go. But of course, if any of them leave it will be blamed on the board...as usual. My hope would be that we are able to off load the older high wage earners and this together with the Cup cash will allow us to maintain the young squad till the end of the seaosn at least - what next season brings who knows, but thats another matter. We know that mistakes by the board contributed to relegation, we know mistakes by those who superseeded them contributed to our current financial situation, one risked on mangagers, one risked spending to get promted - both risky, both failed. NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT THAT NOW. We have this board, and this situation and the club will need to deal with that and ensure the bank maintains the best possible support ... and if that means exit of players sobeit. Alternative owner/baord will make feck all difference unless they are load... and when was the last time we interested a seriously loaded potential owner? No the rumoured takeover currently seems to be another case of potential change of ownership without any additional funds - or fund made availabe by alternative forms of debt - so the result is the same.... the only way we get out this hole is promotion or increasing revenues through other means - the Gate and realistically we simply dont have the level of support necessary to sustain a full ground in this division and with the current level of success, no matter how much some of us might like the style of play. But , please for once can we acknowledge that whatever happens in Jan , the last playesr Lowe WANTs to sell is the kids, but he may not have that choice.

We have to be honest for a moment and stop being so judgemental - yes there will always be a group of fans who will watch pre season training against the Budist monks played on ice at 18000 ft in Nepal if it came to it, those whose lives are incomplete without a weekly or even biweekly fix of Saints, and good luck to them. There are others in the pyramid whose value for money threshold means the opposition and thus overall potential quality of the football does play apart - and as long as these folk are still genuinely suporting Saints and not secret Man U fans, again this is not a problem with me - afterall its also a finance/time issue for many. That is and will be the case whatever happens in the boardroom , or who is in charge. Excitment also generates more interest - the old ' I was there' - and not wanting to miss out when all about you everyone else is going - its the naturall pack mentality we share - it does make it alot easier to find an excuse notto go , when 10000 others are doing the same thing - and vice versa. So again, I believe ANYTHING that happens to the club that provides fans with an EXCUSE to return, even if it is in hope of seeing opposition stars, should be welcomed - afterall we need the cash ;-)

NOt sure I understand some people - I like many have bemoaned the shrinking attendances and challenged those 'staying away' to return for the good of the club. If this draw sees them coming back in droves and filling SMS to the roof with volume and passion - how exactly is this a bad thing? If we want to encourage those fans staying away to return, surely this is the best opportunity - a decent performance might actually help bring some back when they see what they are missing - For all the crap that has befallen us these last 4 years, for all the rhetoric about Lowe, Crouch, Wilde and Friday's latest takeover, surely what its all about is the football? An, nothing beats a full on home cup game as underdogs against the club we all love to hate - believe the last time we played them a division apart in the Cup we won 1-0 ;-) We might often all disagree, but we are ALL stuill fans and if this gives us an opportunity to show that unity and spirit, its fantastic One Saints, One fanbase - dont let the crap associated with the boardroom, divide us has been my mantra so lets not start with the bickering and encourage everyone to return and unite behind the team, if not the baord? COYRs

One thing I just dont get.... We constantly hear the line that Lowe is 'divisive, that he is a parasite, and ruining the club etc and that fans will continue to stay away etc..... but surely Lowe can only be 'divisive' if we let him be? When you think about it we have a board that is in position because it has the majority shareholding endorsement - rightly or wrongly, these guys own enough shares to keep them in their positions. Now against that there is feck all we can do - surer we can protest, we can get all angry and shake our fist, we can sing anti Lowe songs etc.... but what does it do? Again, another two bit group with just enough spare cash to blow ....might... by enough shares and jump into bed with Crouch to mount a challenge, but all we will get is more of the same turmoil and merry-go-round. What we need is cohesion - and that does ultimately start with the fans - we MUST NOT LET lowe and his crownies be a divisive force, like I said it only is if we let it. There is simply no rationale reason for staying away because of Lowe and Wilde. Sure, staying away because you dont like watching defeats, or kids or are skint etc is everyones choice, but stayinga way because of Lowe is letting him be divisive and more importantly does not help the club during its hour of greatest need. I know its a chicken and egg situation and a moral dilemma - afterall we dont want players sold, but if we cant as a buisness demonstrate sufficient income through the gates then the banks will dictate the realisation of the assets. Now, I know some will be offended by this (really not sure why) but there are some that give the 'impression' that they want more fans to stay away as this will break Lowe - admin will force him out etc. Which might happen .... but at what cost to the fortunes of the club? Relegation is one thing, relegation with debts and administration could see us years in turmoil with no guarrantee of who or what picks up the club. I honestly believe that our best chance of getting oput of this mess is ignoring the boardroom. Forget about them, let them feck themselves, a refusal to let them dictate how we SUPPORT our club. Attend in numbers, get teh gate up, make SMS a difficult place for visiting fans, DONT GIVE THE BOARD a convenient EXCUSE FOR SELLING THE BEST TALENT. Support JP and the kids - If we can just hold on and keep this side together, there is a real chance they will be amongst the top next season - and ultimately if you want rid of Lowe and Wilde, a CCC side which is no longer losing money and in with a promotion shout is more likely to attrract a significant investor than one in admin or lingering in the relegation places due to ever increasing debt forcing player sales - surely we can all see the logic in that? Again, I make no apologies for this maybe insulting some, but is Lowe being at the club not really a convenient excuse to staying away because quite simply there is no appetite for the quality of the 'entertainment' ? Funnily enough I have no problem if anyone wants to stay away because they dont think its worth the money, but staying away because of Lowe, is ultimately contributing to the crap we are in, whatever the principles behind it. I would say this: come in droves, fill the ground, get the bank off our backs, dont give LOwe the excuse for players sales, get us up the table, and we suddenly become a far better proposaition as a potential premiership club for an investment that CAN make a significant difference and grant the change of ownership so many desire.

Is it home form and pressure, or simply that the passing style we play is ineffective against those playing more defensively away? I thihnk it might actually be as simple as that - Our away form is not half bad because we dont nedd as much guile to break down sides actually giving us more space by coming forward - we have good young talented kids, but not (yet) good enough to break down a more solid defensive style which is what we usually come up against when playing at home. We get fewer clear cut chances and so the misses stand out more. Sometimes, I think everyone in football over complicates things - especially us fans when we try and analyse this and that - multiplied by paranoia and woo/superstitious mumber jumbo ;-) - I dont think we have a Home problem in the head - simply not enough of a simple over the top plan B for the last 20 mins - being able to bring on a colossus of a CF to hoof it to when confronted by 9-10 behind the ball. (not that I like to see that craop, but needs must and all - the kids simply dont have enough yet to break down these defences.

Could it not be that the clubs at top level have agreed something in principle eg the fee in advance of agents/players being involved? It would certainly help with bank discussions if they knew we had a preliminary agreemnet to sell at Xmil in Jan.... sorry to add to misery...??

'aggrieved'? - not sure I get you. Typo's/spelling, well when working I dont have time to review my crap typing and no option to 'edit'. If you dont wish to read these posts, well fair enough, no one is forcing the issue, and quite frankly who cares. But please reamian quiet about things you know absolutely feck all about. Your patronising and accusative tone re the 'SOS warriors' is at best churlish, at worst vindictive. To set the record straight as you obviously don't have the facts to hand: 1. 'Pie and a Pint' - no Pizza and an overpiced imported bottled lager - which we paid for ourselves 2. Have no view on Wildes personality, because unlike some, If I dont know someone well enough I don't form strong opinions on their personalities not being in pocession of all the facts. 3. With respect to 'loyalty' - I offer NO support to Wilde and am not happy like many with his current approach, but as you well know, this has absolutely feck all do do with the principle of whether simply because he is a shareholder, he should feel obliged, more than others to donate cash to the club. Even if I were to intensly dislike him, It would still not alter the fact that he is free to do with cash as he pleases - its a matter of principle. GM, I have been one of the FEW who often supported your views and enjoyed your posts, be they controversial or otherwise, but its clear from your pedantry and response why you seem to lose that goodwill quite frequently.

Therein lies the problem Roman, holding on to them. Indeed, praise SHOULD be given for the investmnet in the academy and the development of talent, and I for one always felt this was agreat investmnet, but now we are so deep in the mire financially, holding on to them may not be through choice.

Missile, no disrespect, but I suggest it's time to unsaddle the high horse - Typing lessons perhaps, more time on a quick spell check and grammar review? For sure, but misinterpreting what you post? Sorry, but the insinuation was pretty obvious - whether you believe that or not. Some out there ' may wish' he had spent this money on Saints, perhaps you try and sit on the fence on this, but why bring it up if thats the case? - I am merely stating that the feeling that because he is a shareholder he SHOULD have a duty to spend his cash on Saints is Boll0x - which I would have thought you might have agreed with.

Not that far back, WBA got promoted with a total wage nill of less than 4 mil - they got relegated pretty much the following season by not really increasing it, but the money in the bank set them up to re challenge the following season. At Saints in the prem our wage bill was in excess of 26 mil, some 55% of turnover - similar but lower to most other clubs - profits? not many, break even most seasons, maybe the odd mil pre tax and dividends of about 0.5 mil on average. I also believe that the board and shareholders wer happy with tahtgiven how perilous the finances were/are of the majority of clubs, in the prem and elsewhere - So I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Lowe naturally wants the club to be self financing and living within its means, with small profits yes come small dividends but thats a PLC thing. There is plenty of money in the game - certainly in the prem and the ONLY reason no one is making money is that greed has pushed up the costs and everyone is running scared to avoid loosing the cash cow that is the prem.... so they hock themselves up further year on year just to stand still - a bubble that will eventually burst leaving many clubs in worse states than us... Lowe does not subscribe to this - and its a matter of opinion as to whether you agree or disagree - I dont give a flying feck about Lowe, but happen to agree that borrowing to fund short term players and wages that does nothing apart from satisfy fans but increases club debt is NOT what I want to see the club do - YES this means we were always more suceptible to relegation, because we did not 'spend to stand still' (although we did spend a fair amount), but neither did we get further in the hole financially. Ultimately, I believe for the vast majority how you view Lowe ultimately comes down to money - for some the lack of borrowing to spend on the team is foolish and shows a 'lack of ambition' - for others the fact that we did NOT get further into debt by spending what we did not have is a far more sensible approach - its also very difficult to have a happy medium as even a smaller debt is debt. Lowe looking for ' a profitable company' is not stupid, its an aim that should be achieveable - the question really is whether there are enough fans that will follow a side that is not losing money - as this means no big silly signings and excessive wages.

The point Wade is quite simple. Whatever you think of these guys, when it comes to 'putting money in the club' no one really has the right to EXPECT that, and if they do expect it , they should expect it from ALM shareholders, not just those with higher percentages.... In terms of 'taking money out in wages' .... jeez, that is a completely seperate matter, his remuneration is agreed by shareholders and as such his contract as an employees has feck all to do with him being a shareholder. NOw you or I might not believe he was ever worth that amount as a CEO/executive chairman, but that is acompletely different debate. This thread is about GMs idea that because Wilde has spent HIS money on refurbishing his house/hotel;, that somehow we as fans have the right to demmand he should have spent it investing in the club. Sorry but whatever we think of him, that is simply Boll0x.

feck where did the sense of humour go....

I am not sure where it states that those with shares in a company MUST give that company their own money under whatever circumstances - Its not unusual for companies in trouble to appraoch ALL shareholders for funds via issues etc (as some of the banks are doing now), but how many of our small shareholder fans would contrinute is Lowe and Wilde did?

I think the only time this would have been possible is befor SMS was built - a Solent Stadium off the M27 - bit like Bayern Munich and 1860 - 60K with standing! - all their history ****** is just that - most clubs have played at vairous grounds as have we and its just the next chapter in a clubs history - and Pompey and Saints shared during the war - lets not forget that the so called 'rivalry' that manifests itself nowadays has really only been firce since the late 60's/70's - going abck before that to the dyas of flatcpas and rattles and many from the area went to watch BOTH sides depending on who was at home. Think Liverpool and Everton should go for it - instead of both spending 300mil + they would each save 150mil - seems daft not to really. If the 'fans' really are the club - the mantra of the die hards, then surely where they stand, sit or support is less important than them being there?

I think the question of TINA is one that we maybe dont fully expand upon.... the thing we have to remember is that whilst there are MANY out there who are perhaps better qualified than Lowe and Wilde in being : 1) CEO of PLC 2) Chairman of a football club - understanding of the commercial and cultural pressures associated with the balancing the financial v footballing requirments of the club as a buisness At present no one has come forward to take their place. No whether we like it or not (and most dont) Lowe and Wilde in partnership with Lowe biddies have a large enough shareholding to do as they wish (within the leagl and regulatory requirements of a PLC.) I have absolutely NO DOUBT that if some one or group cam forward with a strong commercial and footballing plan and the cash to back it up and buy the shares at a reasonable amount, then Lowe and Wilde would welcome them. Please dont be so naive to suggest that Lowe and Wilde sghould in effect give away their shares for the good of the club - to someone who might have scraped together 15 mil of VC or consortium funding and if given the club could use this to 'invest' i the team.... its fantastical and silly - will never happen and anyway it would require the agreement of all shareholders not just wilde and Lowe.... So the only way to really get Lowe out is to buy him out which will cost at least 55p a share, and offered to all his cronies, or for another coup and change by Crouch with Wilde changing aliegence again.... it wont happen or you could not make it up.... so what is the best way forward? to get change, but without the Merry-go-round? There is only one really if we want change... that is to have a club that is both viable, strong on the park financially and on the pitch so it is attractive to those who have the funds to realise its potential.... at the moemt the only folk 'potentially interested' as sniffers around, with no real funds who are probably only ever going to be interested if we go into admin and they buy the club for £1 - no one will be seriously entertained if they cant show proof of cash - and not the kind that is raised through borrowings that will be set against the club as a company, thus increasing the debt a la Man U - Wilde has catagorically stated this is pointless. I cant believe that there are a few that would welcome admininstration IF it meant getting rid of Lowe as I really cannot see how we would be able to recover - the best way to get rid of Lowe is funnily enough success - promotion and the premiership, when we become attractive again to those with serious money and Lowe and Wilde can waltz off with a suitable profit. I guess maybe I ma syaing is that if you want rid of Lowe, supporting teh club even more financially is ironically likely to have more effect than not - especially as it would have a positive impact on the side rather than admin, relegation and no potential future... as they say its a funny old game.

JS, Although we probably disagree on much you write here, thanks for putting it across os clearly and rationally. We all have our own choices to make about the situation and whilst I dont share your views, I do at least respect your right to make the choice. Most of the arguments from both sides have been done to death, so I wont start repeating it all over but IMHO, and again this is a choice thing, many of us have lost the plot a bit about all this. Yes, its important to us, afterall why would we feel the anger and frustration if we did not care? Yes I can appreciate the pain that the lowly situation and fall from grace over the alst 5 years has caused us to feel, I can even fully apprecaite that for many Lowe has become the personification of that anger and pain - afterall his mistakes HAVE directly contributed to that fall (dont worry, not going to go on about flip side again). No what I feel right now (and before Um Pahars comes along and rips me to shreds by quoting somthing from 3 years ago --- surely we are allowed to change our minds with the change in circumstances ??? ;-)) is that maybe, just maybe, the years in the prem have made us forget why we are supporters in the first place? Hear me out, what I mean is that the years of playing at the top table, the realtive success v the other hundreds of clubs NOT at the top tier - often clubs with greater histories and successes to their names than us, made us complacent - did we take it all for granted and thus expect that that is our RIGHTFUL place? afterall that mantra has been forced upon us by both fans and the Club in their OS PR? Have we lost the value of what made supporting a club so important to so many people - the simple things, going to the match on a Saturady with your Dad or Grandad as a kid, when it was more about the atmosphere than the result, the fact that it creates a belonging? OK so culturally things have changed, but have we lost sight of the fact that whatever we like to think this IS a game and we will always ahve ups and downs however they are caused, whether through bad managers, crap players or awful decuisions in the board room? I also think that whilst I understand that some feel they simply dont want to support the lOwe regime by putting money into the club, the fact is that whatever the gate and the revenue generated, Lowe WONT benefit personally - the only beneficiary at the club at this time from improved gate reciepts will be the club as a whole reducing its debts and perhaps surviving long enough to a point where the kids do actually make that next step? I dont know if thats possible, I dont have any answers, but I do have hope - hope not of the eternal optimist, but the hope and dream that makes football fans so unique - the reason why they come back year on year to see Margate play Ashford town or lets face it Saints v whoever. So maybe its this hopw that has been extinguished in many for the time being - which is sad if true, because it only takes afew sparks to reignite it - we are just in a phase of firing blanks at the moment. So I guess for me, its this hope that makes me a fan, the dream of Wembley some day and championship winning glories - without that we dont bother. Right now, I count myself as lucky that this has not been erroded by Lowe, in fact I refuse to let it be erroded by the boardroom as right now, I feel a bit more liberated by getting back to what its always really been about, however naive - the hope and dreams.

Nthing to add ( for once) - sums it up perfectly.

Its a big dilemma as a fan, we want and are pleased to see the team trying to play in a proper way, on the deck with a passing agme designed to entertain, but many have become disillusioned as the results dont improve. As fans we want both- entertainment and results - one without the other simply wont do especialy as our future in this division is put in jeopody as a result. If we were financially stable, had a modicom of investmnet available, had a bit more experience that had us comfortable in mid table - then the idea of patience whilst the team as a unit gels and develops playing this style would not be a problem. So there you have it - yup great to playing this way and getting the plaudits - but it does not put bums on seats or guarrantee survival and progress if we dont get the points on the board.- simple really.