Frank's cousin

What is interesting is if you read ALL of the NOV audited accounts and statement which was poste don the LSE site - in which its stated that whilst there is continued support from the bank + the loan notes (SMS Loan), the club can continue as a going concern particularly as it will continue to liquidate assets in 2009 until such a time as the revenue covers costs etc.... BUt the next bit at teh bottom also states that should the banks withdraw their support, then the club will seek 'alternative funding' What this suggests to me is this; That Lowe/Wilde do know of some individuals, perhaps from amongst the existing shareholders, that would be prepared to inject some cash IF and ONLY if it was the last resort to save the club from admin - This is speculation naturally, but I find it odd that this is in the financial statement under the 'going concern' section .... a classic case of reading between the lines or wishful thinking?

Open Minds! ;-) One of the reasons so many of us are so stubborn in our views is probably why we are football fans - by our very nature passionate and fiercely loyal and thus its in our nature to be stubborn! ;-) I think blind support or hate from BOTH side is wrong and any regime/board worth it salt must be able to stand up to criticism and defend its position with logical and intelligent argument - not default to insult and innuendo and spin - which would be one of my biggest criticisms of Lowe - the old 'no point in telling you the truth as you are too dim to understand and refuse to listen anyway' arrogance - which he is reknowned for, but to be a little fair, there has /is a vocal MINORITY who have never listended to the the rationale, but simply never liked him since the reverse takeover and have wanted nothing more than to get rid based on petty prejudice or politics.... trouble is, because of this, Lowe in error treats all criticism the same - or so it appears in the media. And so has alienated not only the tint minority who simply ahd it in for him, but also many intelligent fans whose criticisms are VALID and quite rightly as the 'customers' who provide the lions share of revenue to the club believe they have a right to be heard with patience and respect....I do understand these points. I guess in my mind 0- and the hardest thing for me me to express (sorry Snowballs, thats why I guess it takes 500 words not 5 ;-)) is that I have always looked at the rationale of the stragegies first - I do believe its right for clubs to live within their means - in fact it should be mandatory (which would even the playing field in the game) - so I have supported that approach and prudent approach to spending - I like te idea of developing our own youth talent and supported te academy investment. I liked the idea of exploring alternative revenue streams that when profitable made a contribution to the club etc - all logical stuff IMHO. I loved the the fact that we finally managed to move to a larger ground, givening more fans the chance to see the side regularly - Its these things that I have supported and not the individual. The flip side being that I can also appreciated the mistakes made and have winced when once again LOwe has aliented more fans by some rash, stupid gaff or arrogant comment - when he has simplydismissed criticism from very knowledgeable and experience folk - so yes I can understand the desire for change, but that surely does not undermine the positives or logic of some of the ideas? But what now? I think most are in agreement, we want change for good, for a future that unites etc. But for some of us we also believe we MUST avoid administration and relegation as a priority. Its therefore we give the rallying call to fill the stadium, and support the team and JP - OK he is making errors in our opinion, the side is struggling and poor, he is not considered teh best man for the job etc - BUT he is in that job for now and the only positive contribution we can make is to support - It surely is the mark of the best fanbase if you support despite what is thrown at you and can stand up and be counted when th side is struggling most? We get better gates we get better support, a better vibe and more cash to help fight off admin - we survive and can then reflect and see who comes forward to take us forward.... but I cant support simply letting the club die in the hope taht somethng better will spring from the ahes without Lowe - it simply does not make sense to me.

Slick - Please dont get me wrong - this whole debate needs to be seperate really - If the question was purely about what is best for SFC the answer would unequivically be a new regime and managerial set up that has the experience and and importantly trust and backing of fans to get us out of the mess we are in and the financial clout to see us stabalise and then progress - and whatever some may think I agree this would not include any of the previous or current incumbants. As many more rewasonable posters have argued, whatever the pros and cons, successes and failures or the fairness of it Lowe's not that man. I have argued that ther have been positives and in the interests of fairnes tried to reason that the decisons made do have a logic to them, that was all. However we dont have that luxury at present - Lowe will only be gone by someone offering a fair and reasonable price for his shares, or admin and liquidation. And at this time without the fionancial backing of fans admin looks more likely and sadly that is not something we are likley to recover from quickly, whoever tries to pick up what is left from the ashes. I can appreciate that some feel it would be a necessary evil to go backwards to go forwards, but my biggest fear is if we go backwards we will just keep going in that direction - and thus our best chance of avoiding this is probably having someone at the helm who just ahs too much personal investment to lose? Its for me a definite case of the club being nothing without its fans. We are the only ones that can effect the financial fortunes at present by turning up and doing our bit.... Mojo - I do think there is possibly something on what you say, but I do not know enough about the convulted ownership of the Ltd companies under the holding PLC and what the admin legalities would mean for the different assets held under the different ltd companies to know what is fact and what is speculation so its a very dangerous place to go.... I know Wilde would certainly ideally entertain the idea of ommercial property development - although he would perhaps argue that this would provide revenue for the club - but I guess the current climate does not make such property speculation a viable option to dig us out the hole. I would have no problem with the PLC utilizing assets to generate non footballing revenue that then went back into the club - I think in this current football climate clubs need to exploit every possible revenue generating source available to them, but there is so much suspicion of Lowe and Wilde, I can see the posts now of 'lining pockets' greed etc which would not help progress. Its also about proportion - If wilde and Lowe expolited jacksons farm and made 2 mil each but it generated 26 mil for the club, I could live with that. If they exploited it made 10 mil each with only 10 mil for teh club its suddenly a different matter - but we do need to be realistic. The whole point of my posts are not about expecting to change folks minds on Lowe, but to point out that I simply cant hate a bloke I dont know, for maing mistakes - mistakes that although they have had a very negative effect on the club by contributing to our current woes, were none the less based on some logic - I would guess that many more would perhaps empathise with this had Lowe's public personna not come across as so arrogant or egotistical, something that is kind irrelevent to me.

I dont expect agreemet but dismissing opinion without even reading or providing informed response is exactly what I was alluding to about the divisions in the fan base.... UP states quite correctly in my humble opinion that judgement should be based on results - to which I agree. However, with football there are so many variables that contribute to the success or failure of a strategy. Therefore it is in many cases difficult to predict 100% the outcome of particular approaches - sure if you appoint an untried manager the likelyhood is of failure, but that is 100% guarranteed depending on the quality of the squad, the support from the coaching staff, morale and form and luck - sometimes you can get lucky.... alternatively, there is no guarrantee of success even with proven managers or players brought in as we see all the time.... Its been raised as to when you consider that someone has made TOO many mistakes, despite it not being intentional that thus determines that they are no longer suitable for the job and that drastic change is necessary. - Well that does depend on your own threshold as to whether you believe that the lack of success is only down to the decison itself and thus who made it or whether its the outside circumstances that also played a major role in this. An example is obviously cash flow - can you blame a club for selling players if they need the income? If results go against you, as a result of squad depletion, do you then blame the manager,the board or the financial problems, for bad results or is it the players whose morale is low because of the sales? Sure its easy to see these things as Black and White and determine that its where we are now that counts and that the current regime has to go - the assumption that there is no way out of this hole unless they all go. Now I dont think anyone would argue against the fact; 1. the current regime is not the only way out of this 2. the current regime have had enough chances at getting it right and constantly repeated the 'same' mistakes' so should go 3. And I can also fully appreciate the argument that even if not totally fair, the current regime will forever be tarnished and found guilty of ALL the failures and thus the source of division and thus should go simply so we can move forward. However, we also have to be practical about it. At present no one has come forward to stake a claim and take the risk to deliver us from this mess - only Lowe has come back to save his investment for sure, but if we really expect someone come in who genuinely loves the club, surely the better position we are in finacially the better? Surely as fans its thus in our interests to get as many to games as possible, help in the darkest hour so we survive, have a bit of cash to keep the bank happy and thus be more attractive to anyone who cares about the club? See this is the problem, there are many posters who just say FOff Lowe - fine, fair enough, but what will change if there is simply another boardroom shuffle? What would change now with a manager change who has no revenue to change the squad? You have to face facts - Lowe is NOT going to relinquish control of his investment whilst we are in this precarious state, he obviously believes he stands the best chance of saving it - something that is INTRINSICALLY linked to the success of the club. What I cant believe is that anyone would think that its worth admin or worse just to get rid - yet being realistic, without a buyer making a decent offer, that is the ONLY way he will go, BUT ITS NOT the answer for SFC - If need be grit your teeth and get to the game and get the cash comming back in. Just to reinterate for those who still fail to see it, I have NO loyalty to Lowe, I have seen and do see the postive rational in the strategies but also acknowledge many have failed - I also question some of his decisions, I just want to see us avoid admin and relegation by whatever means. BUT I do stand by the fact that as a fanbase as a whole, we have not looked at the strategies and tactics employed by Lowe fairly and judged them purely on their merits - too often some have judged these purely on the grounds of who was making the decision - we are also very keen to put all the ones that turned out OK, Hoddle, Strachan, etc down to luck rather than judgement - which is fair enough, but you also then need to apply the SAME evaluation criteria to those that have not worked, and acknowledge the parts played by all the other variables. I guess whether you believe he deserves to be treated fairly will dictate your view on this, but for me anyway, what he 'deserves' is irrelevent to the principle.

Alps, see this the problem I have with you - This is not about portraying Lowe as anything, but about recognising that the choices made by the board were made in good faith and with reason - sure some failed and quite rightly criticism is due there, but its also about recognizing that as fans our 'divisions' on the Lowe debate are less to do with not recognizing his contribution to our 'downfall', but more in the way we have reacted to them.

No.... but you do like to play the cheeky scamp and put the odd word in my mouth! ;-) There are plenty out there who would have also done the job for what we offered him - and as we know its impossible to predict - I do believe though that several of those fans would have liked would be way beyond what we would have been able/prepared to pay. I dont know the history of how Lowe 'found' this pair and plucked them from obscurity, who recommended them etc or how they made a judgemnet that this was a good way forward. I recall Lowe and some of the staff (was it Hoddle?) going to the Netherlands several years ago to look at the set ups they had in their academies etc so that could have been the start of it - as we know, Lowe has always seemed to prefereed working with managers that see themselves as Coaches first - developing players, rather than wheeler dealers. I guess the biggest (removing alol emotive contexts from the pro/anti lowe debate) issue, is that LOwe never seems able to compromise his beliefs in a strategy for the sake of a quick fix to get us out a hole - or did he with redKnapp? and that failed as well....

The rationale for change has been well argued by those who try and let facts dictate opinion rather than ignorance and prejudice - part of the reason for the so called 'divisions' in the fan base is not because there are those that 'worship' Lowe v those that hate him, but that many get fed up with the constant and perpetual use of OTT emotions, hate, factually inaccurate statements spread as gospel to undermine the truth and based on a long campaign that he ‘simply did not belong' - I guess its not a case of defending Lowe, but of defending his right to be in football and to challenge the old school - after all there is nothing wrong with being strong willed and wanting to be seen as innovative. The problem is that whatever has been tried or achieved or failed, because of the bitterness created in some fans eyes following the reverse takeover, and loud voices that never let it lie from the very start - there has never been unanimous support for any thing that has been tried, be it from mangers, fans, other board members or those shareholders 'associated' with the club - and Lowe's personality was never likely to overcome this hostility.. Especially amongst the fans. If we take Lowe out of the equation and think just a little about what has changed in the game and why some decisions where taken - open ones mind to new possibilities, its actually easy to see the logic to many of the ideas that are considered 'disasters' on here. Provincial clubs who have a local fan base only are drifting further and further from being able to mount or sustain any kind of challenge to the top half of the prem - the financial gaps just keep getting wider, and these clubs if they truly want to avoid relegation, need to invest heavily just to stand still - not so much a problem with a rich backer, but impossible to avoid huge debt accumulation without one - unless you have a good conveyor belt of talent coming through the youth system.... The problem then is of course how you satisfy the fans and managers you employ - as these groups have ambitions beyond what living within the clubs means can supply - certainly Lowe would never have been easy to work with, but manager turmoil will almost certainly have been contributed to by the FACT that we could not afford to hold onto the very best and build a quad around them, nor compete effectively in a transfer market which was spiraling out of control. - Yet managers like Hoddle and Strachan - did see the logic and understand the limitations - even if eventually they also felt that we could not match their ambition - we simply did not have the funds. So should we just give up and accept mid to lower table mediocrity? Naturally we would love that now and be more accepting of premiership status even if always looking over the shoulder, but lets be honest, 27 years of top flight and with some recent relative success, did massively increase our expectations, we felt it we were bigger than we were and any failure of the board to invest to match our ambition was bound to cause further negativity towards an already unpopular chairman. So what does Lowe do, accept that fate or try something different? He tries different things that he believes will help generate a competitive advantage - Radio stations and other commercial activity designed to improve our media presence and generate income long-term, advertise the corporate facilities (including the catering ;-) )to try and generate greater revenues and above develop and further invest in the academy and sports science to give us an edge where possible - all very laudable and rational - but to many fans seen as distractions and diversions of 'investing' in the first team - yet the combined annual net costs of these ventures would have only really bought us a Rory Delap.... and once again this sort of thing was ridiculed in the media by football old guard and the vocal fans heading the anti Lowe campaigns since the beginning of his tenure - yet since SMS opened we had suddenly 15000 extra 'new' supporters who could finally get to see regular games - fans whose first real experience of the club was a modern stadium and premiership football, some of whom saw this as a real positive of Lowe, leaving some of the older Dell boys feeling perhaps that part of the clubs soul had gone - and Lowe was to blame. The problem is that football IS so emotive for fans yet not so for everyone else involved - who see it as an industry be it SKY, the media, the players and agents and those involved in the commercial management of the clubs - so we tend to see any action that seems more commercially based in its foundation rather than rooted in the heart of the club. game and pitch as a serious affront to what the club and the game should be all about - and naturally we want someone to blame. NO one is saying that Lowe has not made terrible errors of judgment, that he is not a poor communicator, especially with fans who are quite literally the lifeblood of a club outside the premiership, no one is saying that he should not accept the responsibility for mistakes that were made that CONTRIBUTED to relegation (luck, form and players and managers need to take their share of that too), but the vitriol and abuse that is aimed at the bloke and EVERYTHING he has done is way disproportionate and indeed what some like myself have tried to defend, often unfair given the positive intention or rationale behind the original idea - (personally if SCW could have got the eye coach to educate our players to actually be aware of the RIGHT ball to play, it would have been worth the salary!) - the media love a villain and played to the fans need for this. Now we have a situation where we wonder what he is getting out of it? Well most of the theories have been discussed - if it was me, not sure I would put myself or family through the kind of infantile abuse where I am called a 'cancer' and folk are wishing I would die... its this sicko crap that makes an equal contribution in dividing fans - many simply don’t want top to support such OOT opinion even if they feel change would do the club some good. I for one will not stand beside someone protesting 'Lowe Out' - if the next words are FOAD... sorry just don’t think football warrants this. There is also the fact that if applying any logic it’s impossible not to acknowledge the positives that have happened during that time and I guess some of us want to defend that as well - its always easier to blame than to praise, especially if the current situation is dire. So what IS he getting out of it? Ego and belief he can make a difference? maybe? But TBH it will most likely be to save his investment and the value of his shares - again a commercial, greedy' reason to slate him again, but we should not forget that the ONLY we he will salvage that is by the club stabilizing and then progressing - something we are all desperate for. Finally as many have said, there are plenty of folk better equipped and more able to rescue us than Lowe, but right now NO ONE has come forward, no one else is willing to risk their reputation on figuring a away out of this mess and logic would surely dictate that maybe we are best served by someone who has a personal interest financially in getting it sorted, than simply an ego who wants the adulation of fans to satisfy it? Yup we would al love a new wealthy sugar daddy/owner that had real investment, but in the current climate that’s a pipe dream - yes, the situation is made worse by the current situation with JP and the lowly league position, but change will only happen if someone steps forward, not by wishing it or further undermining the finances by staying away.

This is the classic problem though - yes there are many that could the job far far better and I dont think even the most ardent lowe loyalist - of whom there can be but a handful, would argue against that. Ther are plenty of merits to delisting s there are to being a PLC - and ultimately I dont think it matters as I dont think we would give a flying feck about being a PLC if we had success under it and under those that were in charge. I welcome ANY cahnge that sees improvement or provides a greater opportunity for progress and sound management - however, what I fail to see is how 'wishing' or protesting for change, helps in any way - we lose money as folk stay away, we are forced to sell again, the results get worse, more stay away and the downward spiral continues - and no one is interested in coming forward with cash to change this. If there is someone interested who has money but does simply not want to spend 8 mil of it buying shares, and is waiting to pick us up on the cheap from teh ashes of administration, then sorry, but that sort of scavenger we can do without - for if they are genuine fans, not more bloody 'talkers' then tehy would help now, in the hour of greatest need. Waiting to pick up the pices of a shattered club so you can get it on the cheap is surely the most selfish act a chairman could make - and yet some seem to believe this is the only way...

Jeez - will that be the same famous losing mentality that saw us to Cardiff an few years ago/ FFS we got relegated, bloew tha cash under GB, now have to sell, and use cheap kids - its tough, it hurts, but FFS it IS STILL ONLY football FFS. Get over yourself.

Dont agree I'm afraid - IT IS ALL DOWN TO MONEY - My guess is the ONLY reason Pearson was not kept on was that Lowe or whoever felt Pearson would keep playing the older more expensive players who Lowe believed we needed to ship out to save money - and that the Dutch guys with their 'Ajax' model of youth development would be able to miraculously build a winning side from the kids we had - WHO ARE cheap as chips. Be honest - for all Lowe's perceived obsession with youth development - and without doubt this has merit, I dont belive we would be playing nothing but kids if we had the resources to blend these with the experienced CCC players or better that would guarrantee promotion - afterall we did not do this in the prem when we had funds. It might not be working and there will be plenty happy to say 'I told you so' - rather than feel dissapointed that another clutch at hope/straws has failed to deliver (naivety is what keeps football fans supporting surely?), BUT I dont think Pearson would have fared any better if only having the kids at his disposal - he may well have done had we kept last years squad witha few changes, but we simply did not have that luxury. I am sure, NIgel, to his credit was prepared to stay on and give it a go - and like most i would have loved to have seen him be given that chance, but we cant presume that he would have been able to get anything more from the kids we have than JP and Wotte. Ultimately, it is all about the cash - it is and always has dictated the decisions in the board room - be it 'living within our means' or the current 'youth experiment'. Which manager we have had, which have stayed, which have left because they felt they were 'not supported' etc - all down to cash Becuase if Lowe's ego is as great as so many peresume, what makes us think that he would not love to be idolised? As the cahirman who provided the support and backing for Saints Champions league success? Seriously, how some think that had we the cash, that we would not spend it is beyond me. Sure he is never going to take and never did take risks with cash - only with managers, and yes there is the argument that by taking risks with managers you are risking cash long term if it goes pear shaped, but you know what I mean. It is as we have seen very easy for those on the outside - LM, thompson on Sky and even on Footie focus to give their two penneth worth - the old guard of football yet again siezing on speculation and ignorance to have a go - and naturally because they are 'real football' people despite not being in pocession of the facts and in some cases with an axe to grind, they are seen as the oracles. The analysis many have given on our demise has been so over blown and complicated as each side has tried to grasp any possible small bit of fact, rumour, gossip and speculation and build it up to support their version, that the simple facts have been forgotten: Lowe made a mistake in apppointing Wigley - a loyal club servent and respected young coach - who was also available within a reasonable salary figure with budget - given that we would also have been paying out Sturrock (Not sure what truthfully happened there, but I doubt it was instigated by Lowe) - well feck me if mistakes dont happen. It weas compounded by leaving it so long and the redknapp debacle - and for those errors Lowe can be blamed well and truely - but how many other chairman get the appointment right all the time? We got relegated and we lost 30 mil + year - sorry but 6.5 mil in parachutes does not cover the immediate losses - we had the turmoil, the sales, the upheaval and for a while it looked like we might have progress, what with GB getting us to the playoffs having spent cash we did not have to try and get promotion - a BIG risk which failed and left us even more in the mire - and also compounds how fans feel as in order to recoup the money we should not have spent we are forced to loan out and sell again - making it feel for us fans like another relegation anyway - yet we are also alot more forgiving of those who risk cash yet fail, becuase of the expectations of success it gives and thus the excited anticipation that comes with the belief we can actually achievs something - rather than the despair and misery that comes with a summer of cutting costs. That is - if you take the egos and personalities out of the equation - the upshot - mistake made, money dolost - more money lost on a promotion push - more leavers, forced to play cheap kids and give them a cheap coach and hope it comes off - The only difference I see between the fans really is there are those who like all fans started teh season with the tiniest bit of hope that it work out and took the positives from that, and there were those who knew it would never work becaus you win nothing with kids, but hey its saints so lets support them, and then those that simpy give nothing a chnace if its in any way associated with Lowe/axis of evil Ultimately, it all comes down to cash - and strangely how we precieve Lowe does as well - nobody in their right mind would like teh bloke based on his media persona and the stories we hear, but depending on whether you believe 'living within ones means' is the right way to run a club, or a gung ho borrow and spend approach that provides the excitement of risk for fans and hang the consequences or somehwere in between. All points of view are equally valid - and as you can see have feck all to do with Lowe as a person - It reminds me of being at school in about the mid 80s - there was this girl I really liked, but she was so into George Michael - I accused her of only liking him because of the way he looked - she responded that that was ******, it was the songs - to which I replied 'would you still have bought 'Faith' if it had been done by Shakin' Stevens'? - of course not was the reply - and I suspect that there are many fans WHO POST ON HERE - that see Lowe in the same way - less about the decisions and more about who made them.

1. cavernous gap - always going to happen witha 150 mil+ differnce in revenue stream dont you think? 2. Boardroom decisions and policy - fair enough not turned out as expected 3. Many millions of pounds inappropriately invested or gone missing - the point at which your post lost its credibility - FFS you know its bad when the mods have fallen into the same trap - just review the audited accounts..... Sure we felt the station was probaly a waste of a million and 250K a year in underwriting it - but hardly the sort of cash that would have bought the right arm of a decent player - it the decision would have been made after the club did its due dilligence which would have suggested it becomming a revenue generator in future...

It is funny though... sure lets have the rumours and gossip from the HP and Heinz 57, but FFS take it with the pinch of salt it deserves - I can just imagine Merry and Pippin walking througfh the car park' talking high finance' - Sorry merry, you may have tried, but you failed for one simple reason, you and your colleagues simply could not come up with the necessary cash - that does not need expertise in high finance, but simple maths will suffice - and anyone who really believes that Lowe, Wilde and Crouch + ALLthe other shareholders should by some moral and divine code simply gift the club to a group of tin pot local businessmen and a former manager, who between them have raised a FEW mil or so are in a dream world...

I just wonder what sort of opinion we would have of LM in these modern times had the impact of relegation been the same in the 70's as it is now? For all the posturing, bullshiete, public slaggings and disputes over everything from the board, squad and petty childish bickering from all sides, the reason we are in this crap is simply money. And in these modern times, being used to sitting at the top table, and the massive financila impact of relegation fans less prepared to see this as part of the game - the loonger it goes on the worse the situation gets and and the more speak out against it - the same who were quiet when SMS was opened, or when getting freebies at Cardiff... Its easy to criticise from the outside, but we saw saw feck all improvement when LMs pals were in the hot seat - why? - Simple, because foral the rubbish spouted, for all the ingnorant ramblings of 'hate' and 'runinig our club' - its just down to the lack of cash and WHOEVER is in charge will face the same nightmares, whoever is appointed manager, will have to work under the same restrictions - how will we replace kids with experienced players when their wage demands will be 3 top 4 times higher? The club is not dying because of one or two individuals, nor do clubs die because mistakes are made in good faithm, or new things tried, or managers appointed that fans dont like (none of us where too hopeful or happy when WGS arrived) - what is killing our club is the simple lack of cash meaning we are stuck fielding kids who are not ready - BECAUSE THAT IS ALL WE CAN AFFORD - and when someone comes in with a plan to provide the CASH (not futher loans and debt) to fund this, great but its easy to talk - and thus the lack of success is trying our patience - because we are so used to relative success when we beat our neighbours regulary and also those we played again yesterday... sending their arrogant fans back to surrey in misery - Now we dont go which compounds the financial problems. Yes there are also problems wit some of the fundementals on the pitch - lack of width, lack of penetration and inexperienced defence etc, things JP needs to sort of be shuipped out - but would a new maanger of calibre we could attract given the money be able to any different with this limited squad? There sure aint any cash lying around to spend on changing it. One last thing though - is it just me or are others fed up with 'experts' mouthing off in th media about things they are ignorant about? We had Big nose thompson on sky talking about how we used o be such a well run club attracting the likes of Keegan etc - hello, that was a different fecking era when Europes best could be had for maybe twice the avergae salary not £200K a week. FFS, and as far as I could see we were a well run club until relegation, when panic and ****wittage set in in desperation to cope with the 60% revenue loss.... then we had the same on fottie focus with that old ralling cry of teh ignmorant 'where has teh moeny gone' - simple answer really do youir fecking research and review the published audited accounts FFS... easy lazy sloppy crap journalism as the old guard jump on the bandwagon in support of LM - who must be right because he is a true football man and never would have got us relegated...... I do rewally feckin hate American influenced media/marketing/business speak, but there is one saying that IMHO does sum up where we are as fans - 'if you aint part of the solution....

Who gives a feck what they score - support the fecking Saints FFS and get behind the side

LM Still got shares, though he sold all his to make a packet? Jeez, I cant believe some are 'impressed' by the fact that an AGM has been turned into a slagging match between egos.... ALL sides involved should be ashamed of making this a shambles.....can anyone tell how exactly this helps our club.... jeez, bunch of fecking kids....

Please help me out here.... I wa sjust wiondering why anyone with any sense is interested in in investing in football? We have heard the usual grumblings of the likes of Davies 'not interested whilst Lowe is here' - sorry Alps but this is ****** - he is just not interested in wasting his money full stop. The ONLY way a club of our size can make money is by LIVING WITHIN ITS MEANS IN THE PREM. This means turning a small profit of about 1.5 mil a year and restricting wages within a structure based on performance and only really spending income from player sales on transfers. That way you investment gets you a very modest return. EG exactlythe model we had under Lowe in the prem. This however does not work to keep you there, as we have seen, with clubs needing annual investment in ever better players just to stand still - which is fine for the top 4 with international appeal and Champions league income, or those with a sugar daddy who has retired and is spunking away his childrens inheritance on his last hoorah, every one else just gets into bigger debt. The alternative is of course to invest in academies and youth and hope that this instills some grater loyalty and that young players who grow up together have that competitive edge associated with homegrown talent - and also invest in the infrastructure and sports science to provide every possible advantage that is usually beyond the revenue streams of a mid table provincial prem club.... sound a bit familiar that does it not? I suggest that if anyone but Lowe had recently purchased the club and said the words above as their vision and strategy for remaining competitive in the prem, would they be applauded or would they be immediately castigated and ridiculed? I dont believe Lowe's mistakes were in the strategy, but in the implementation - the manager merry-go-round, etc. The problem here was simple - the traditional and old school experienced managers dont want to be told that the startegy is this, and here is how its going to be and work within these restrictions - they want the freedom to do as they pleae and spunk whatever money they wish up the wall - whereas the strategy requires coaches who are fully committed to bringing through talent and happy to manage by getting the best from the squad rather than squad churn - often encouraged by the greedy agents and the greedy players themselves. BUt as we inow, until the majority of clubs come together and say enough is enough, we will not be held to ransome by players and agents, the strategy has an additional flaw - you get left behind and most likely relegated whilst teh kids are developing - and then on relegation the agents stream in, the bets players leave, the best kids are exploited elsewhere as the huge income loss determines who stays and who goes..... a sad familiar tale. So ultimately, unless someone is willing to LOSE(invest) say 20 mil a season to provide additional income over and above TV revenues and gates in the prem, we would yo yo or always be where we usually were struggling against relegation. The good Strachan season was the anomoly - and like all small clubs if you have a good season, it attracts the vultures and th best playesr (bridge etc) are off to the bigger stages. Same happened to Levejkusen after a champions league final - off go 3 players to Bayern Munich.... no one is immune apart form the big clubs. So my guess thats why we wont see Davies involved - he sees the bigger picture and the way fans react and blame the board for what is an almost impossible situation now - fans expectations no matter how reasonable now, would be raised if we were to get a sniff of promotion and then unless we saw massive investmnet of someones personal funds , be dashed in the weekly defeats. And lest be honest, with out prem football, the gates will continue to decline as the media and cultural pressures persist in creating a football culture of bigger is better and the extra revenues generated by Sky by when showing the top 4 justifies their promotion of the prem as a 4 club league - why would any kid want to support a club outside this elite --- 'what a loser' etc... So Alps, a couple f points for you to get your teeth into; 1. I have never supported any individual over another - I have supported a strategy - even though i can see its flaws - and i have always been weary of those with silver tongues and nice fan friendly platitudes and gestures, but little strategy 2. I dont think Lowe is driven by spite, but by ego - as many have said its probably freudian in its size - yet this is actually ideal in a club chairman to some degree. - I believe he would like nothing better than to be able to deliver success based on HIS strategies - teh sports science and kids delivery the very best to siants and being able to stick two fingures up at all the 'klingons'. - I believe he still believes he can, if we can get through this curernt crunch - however misguided or realistic this idealism is, I dont ahve a crystal ball and strange things happen in football everyday. 3. Administration is not scary - this is fotball and we all understand the implications of the money in the modern game currently causing clubs to stutter uner the financial strains - the club will be around in some guise in whatever league so long as their are fans who want to go and watch - what we have to ask ourselves is, are we prepared to provide the 'lifeblood' of the club and keep it going whoever is in the boardroom and whatever strategy it is they are adopting - and we each have our own opinion and threshold as to what we are prepared to witness on the pitch v the cost to the wallet. 4. True fans have no ego - I do believe this - it should never be about the success of the club, but about the pride and loyalty we have in it - its what keeps the 100 or so each week at Eastleigh etc - we get that right and the personalities doing what they wish in charge become less and less of an issue to what the club is really all about - for me something that was best illustrated in recent times by the sportsmanship and sheer overwhelming emotion of our fans at Cardiff in '03 and the turn out for Danny Wallaces MS match. Ultimately, though IMHO its time we stopped using Lowe as the excuse for division and current lack of interest and success - and actually acted on the words so many like to use - 'We the fans ARE the club' - if that is indeed true, what does the current fanbase tell us about what kind of club we actually are?

Hi UP and Snowballs- I guess in response to your points, Yes I would have like to see how pearson would have done had he stayed, but is the logic that because we were destined to ship out teh expensive contracts and play kids to keep teh administrators at bay, the rationale for going with a dutch coach? Maybe I am guilty of too much 'rational and not enough 'instinct' but its such a difficult choice and lots of IFs, BUts and and maybes.... Snowballs, I guess my point on the admin issue though is: With Lowe and JP - we do have every cvhance of going doen this year but also slim chnace of staying up. Whereas admin now means almost relegation. Yes this May mean to end of Lowe and JP, but even this is not guarranteed , butwe would have a whole new set of problems to conpound those we already have. So I am not convinced its a suitable solution - and should it really be used to get rid of someone? I dont think any of us have the answer here - as all fans have different thresholds of expectation based on teh circu,stances - its why I asked what would teh majority believe is an approproiate timescale for recovery on administration - we could be looking at 10 years + and is that something that would see the gates rise at SMS? I just dont believe we would have the patience for that kind of rebuild - so I guess Thats why avoiding administration and thus giving ourselves a fightinmg chance of surviving in the CCC this season with whoever at the helm is my favoured option really.

Alpine - what gets me is this - Lowe out is one thing - each to their own, and if you truely believe that getting rid of him willl be the answer to our prayers and see the club build to success - then I dont think anyone would argue against that - IF it were the most likely outcome. But using administration as the tool to get rid? FFS do you really believe that after Lowe has gone, and we are left in the hands of the administrators all our problems would be solved? Do we have a guarrantee that someone with sufficient funds to rebuild the club is available? NO we dont, we have the usual rumour and speculation about another tin pot tire kickers etc but no one stepping in to help the club now when the need is greatest? Where is the red and white blood these guys might proferss to have running through tehir vains? Because if true, they would be supporting the club NOW precisely to stave off relegation and administration. Or are we suggesting that they might, just might be like ALL businessmen and belive in getting a bargain?

Its all so very simple if all you believe that getting rid of Lowe is the answer to the footballing problems - If you really believe that with Lowe out of the equation and anybody else at the helm will resolve this - then by all means be in favour of administration, as at present that indeed does look like the only way you will get your wish. I think though where many of the 'apologists' are always misunderstood is in the simple fact that whatever the opinions on Lowe - and the arguments are legendary and so ingrained its a pointless excercise to be honest - administration will bring a whole new set of problems - as those who believe lowe is the only thing 'holding us back' will surely appreciate, the impact of relegation and administration on the whole structure of the club that is being held together under such fragile condistions at the moment will change yet again - YES it will provide the circumstances for someone with a genuine love for the club to step in and build a new, but this will take both time and money - what timescales for regrowth do those in favour of administration believe will be acceptable to the vasy majority of fans? - especially as no one has truelly ever indicated they have the funds to rebuild the club. I think most of even the most ardent 'apologists' recognise that things aint going according to plan - we have hope, that is true, afterall thats what being a fan is alllabout , the dreams and aspiration thing that makes us want to believe - but points on the board is what its all about when in a relegation scrap and now we are not even playing the pretty football anymore.... do we chuck it all in? do we give up on the plan? I dont have a problem with reviewing the situation and looking at better alternatives - thats life, but we do have VERY short memories - remember Redflaps? the best choice to keep us up - a real legend of the game? He came here and destroyed what little confidence and spirit the side had left. It just shows that there are no guarrantees - its sport, and there is a logic in both argumnets - change before its too late, or stick at it and hope that it comes together? the continuity - afterall Its fair to say that those clubs with great success have stuck with their managers a long time, even through some very sticky patches and poor results? The answer? I dont have a crystal ball - but right now its a given that the lottery of administration is probably the 'strategy' that has the biggest risk and the greatest unknown. That's why I am a so called 'apologist' - I do not believe administration is the answer to our problems - it might get rid of the devil, but we would undoubtedly be stuck in Hell, upside down in a tank of Sh!te for the forseeable, as the only angel trying to rescue us is a local tin pot who has borrowed 2 mil from 20 mates tries in vain to provide a ladder - which is way too short and cant be bridged by the 'bleeding red and white' fan friend'y platitudes. Lowe out or in is one debate - but administration as the tool to get rid is so misguided.

No one is saying you cant be sad, I am saddened by the decline, but I guess pragmatic - we were always really on a knife edge, with the exception of the WGS year, the premiership changed football - and those smaller clubs such as us became under ever increasing pressure to either increase debt to fund expensive transfers and wages ...JUST TO STAND STILL.... or have a rich owner... and in any sport there is also a big element of luck, which can be a complete and utter bastard if its against you. The fans would have been at the time happy had we spent loads, borrowing to fund the smal chance of increasing one place in the league, the management felt this was wrong. Agents saw an opportunity to drive up the market for transfers and wgaes not giving a flying feck about what this was doing to th geame, and the top or bigger clubs lapped it up, knowing a closed shop of trophies was not far away, with agents supplying them the best players without having to do the dirty work.... what do we see now in the prem...declining attendences - sure cost in this climate is a factor, but so is the boredom of knowing your side can only ever get to mid tabl - because someone bigger with more cash will tempyt away your best players never allowing you to build a side that is loyal and cares for the club they play for... and now its even worse, because we simply cant afford to say no, whatever the players say... Sorry, dissillusioned with the game - not the club - We often I think forget that the biggest contributing factor to our current situation is the disparity in revenues between the prem and the CCC - relegation and promotion have always been partof football, but this vast discrepency in income, is destroying clubs like us, e nolonger can afford to keep players who would be average squad players in the prem - so we simply cant build on what we begin.

Agree... this place gets stranger and stranger...and sicker

Just think where we where 50 years ago...3rd div south or something... we could get worse and we will get better, but we dont have a devine right to be in the top flight.... there are probably 70+ teams that have a history in the top flight - the bad thing is beacuse of the money in the game, its never been more difficult to get out of a rut...because you cant afford to keep a side together and build - its all quick fix and cash and luck,.... and those budgies agents mean no loyalty either...

I think how you feel abouit it generally depends on what your expectations are. We have a good young inexperienced squad that lacks a couple of defenders and a goal scorer... I am sure JP knows this. BUT the cold hard fact is we are skint. As such expectations for this season for me were that we were developng a foundation - starting from nothing - but with hope. IF we were able to keep this squad together, playing as they are, but doing enough to stay up, add to it with a couple in the summer, my hopes for next season would be good - BUT its unlikley - I think the flaw in Lowe's strategy (which in an idealistic world I would support) is that in the CCC with the finances as they are, keeping this squad together will be impossible - so his belief in building a side that will mature together and thus progress is flawed - we will build a side and just when things start to click we will sell the best - a fact of CCC/lower league existence for 70 odd clubs without the cash - then try and build again - a vicious circle if ever there was one. Th irony is that these kids, whilst not all equally technically gifted, do show a spirit and attitude that is good to see, and JP for whatever faults is getting them playing football as it should be played - we lack a defender and a goalscorer for sure, but its easier to support a side that WANTS to play this way with kids that give a feck, than some sides in this division with their 'rough it up game plans' - whose squads make up for lack of finesse with brute strength. At the end of a very long day though it is about points and success that will drive attendences - which in turn will drive revenue and thus give us more chance of holding on the best talent we have and actually building on these foundations. For me that is currently the bigger worry than how we are playing - and I believe the flaw in the current plan... which is also the biggest shame as its been fecked by the modern greed in the game and the dying of the game outside the premier****e.

Oops, but it does not really matter who wrote it. I guess I am just as much of a victim to the vagaries of the emotional rollercoaster as the next man - attempting a more complex analytical discussion one moment - a perverse sense of masochism at the best of times, considering the oft abused opinion. ;-) - and yet sometimes the almost whimsical goes along way to reminding me what it was that actually made me be a football fan in the first place - romantic idealism , is not for everyone I know, but sometimes (maybe its just the Chrimbo season - good will and joy to all mankind - especially having taken my 4 year old daughter shopping for a present for mummy this weekend) that I have come over all sentimental who knows, but sometimes there is alot of truth and perhaps more enjoyment in the simplicity of just being a fan appreciating the good amongst the negativity that we forget at times. Early Merry Christmas to all - must be having watched Miracle on 34th Street with the little one last night.... ;-)