Frank's cousin

Dave Armstrong was a great player and servant for the club and as many have pointed out should be treated with the respect he deserves. However, I am only speculating here, he is known for his strong views that he airs on the radio which is fine and he is perfectly entitled to say hat he believes and be respected for it. If however, he was at the club in some sort of hospitality function either officially or unofficially, and was openly critical in an area wher club sponsors, suppliers and associates were then he should in that case hopefully have been more restrained. That would go for any walk of life. If you go to a party and slag of the hosts (speculation again), dont eb surprized if you dont get asked back ...

...and look wher it got me ;-) I have no hard feelings about it to those who criticised, but i would do it again to simply have the cahnce of meeting and asking questions - it was interesting from that perspective, but sad as it achieved nothing. I would say though, that personal glory did not come into it - I really dont think anyone there that day was thinking about what it could do from that perspective. Personal information fair enough - who would turn down the opportunity?, but it was genuinely designed to try anything positive ... sadly not to be.

I think my only hope on all this Saint 1977 is that greed is the answer... I cant see how simply ousting Lowe through whatever means will solve the financial crisis, without Lowe selling shares, etc... NO one has indicated that so apart from perhaps a new manager who might be able to steady things on the footballing side (would have no problem with JP being involved at academy level) would it achieve anything else with Lowe still ****ing n from the outside and more bitterness and resentment building up. It why I suggested that greed of saving share value might be our best hop - this is only possible if we survive in the CCC and then build if Lowe and Wilde want to see any return on their sharevalue - but somewhere this became interpreted as FC supports Lowe and the status quo - Lowe luvvie, rants.. what can you do...

Maybe, but iwe would have ended up with a blank sheet of paper...

Its funny... The thought of having Nick represent me previously horrified me, I thought he was a hot head - but although i dont agree with everything he says, after having met him, i can honestly say he is as passionate a fan as there is. He clearly cares about the club, way more than I do and I do think his post does demonstrate a balanced and fair perspective - however, its clear that this is now in a minority so unlikely to be popular. If NIck had come out with a statement that supported Crouch 100%, and slagged Lowe and Wilde, would the rsponse to his 'representation' be different? too right it would.

That fair enough, you have your opinion and are entitled to it. Should that stop us debating the issue? I have no intention of trying to convert fans...it would be impossible, but that does not mean i cant defend my own opinion...especially if it is often misinterpreted. my approach has always been to assess the actions, not personalities. I cant argue against the FACT that during Lowe's tenure the proportion of strange,, odd and abysmal decisons have gone up versus those of common sense - to the point where he has alienated so many... but I really dont care about LOwe, but DO feel its important to recognise positives where there are some, even if ultimately things dont work - and I would certainly not advocate some of the vitriol - it is football afterall.

It failed. Wilde did not play ball, we all left with egg on face... not much else to talk about, but we learned at least one thing - Wilde is manipulative. I never had a problem with fans criticising it because it failed... but there was an element of jealousy there from thsoe criticising it BEFORE it failed...

I would suggest though Duncan that its more to do with current over sensitivities that you call it surmonising and whatever, when its just one opinion. The Crouch criticism I stand by. I know you probably feel that its disingenuousand I can certainly see how it might be misread, but the it does not take a leap of faith to see that it was Never likely to be called upon... thats not moral high ground but cynicism! Which I freely admit, no different had Lowe made such a claim. NOW I am sure that Crouch would honour it wre Wilde and LOwe suddenly overcome with generosity or they won the lottery, but its the kind of thing I just really hate - claims that are so very easy to make, that we kind know will never be substantiated and yet gives good PR.... no different from Wilde's 'investment waiting in the wings' - and you might recall how musch stick h got for that one. I just wish these guys would avoid this sort of thing.

Sure, never said it was representative...

I would add that if anything it balances opinion. How often diod we see soundbites canvassed by teh media in teh street without even asking whether these folk attended games or supported saints, but they all said their piece on LOwe and Wilde and suddenly its reported as fact that fans are all aginst this or that... its wrong, but it works both ways.

With respect Stanley, I agree with some things you say, in fact I would go as far to say i agree with some of what 99.9999% of posters on here say...just not all of it. no different from my opinion on Lowe, have like some ideas hes had and defended those ideas...does not mean he has not failed in many other areas. That is all what NIck was saying and what I was agreeing with... And no, NIck does not speak for fans - he speaks for NIck and anyone who agrees with him... I get just as ****ed off as anyone when folks claim to speak for a majority with no mandate, but that does not make his opinion any less valid IMHO.

Saint 1977 Thanks for the post - I have to admit tobeing completely ost on all this as I am not against change, far from it, its clear that what we have is failing right now. All I have ever been supportive of is that I liked the 'idea' of what we had tried, but this it seems is enough to get on the wrong side of the 'law'. In addition, it now seems that simply posting anything that is at odds with the vocal majority and suddenly its a huge offensive as the big guns are rolled out to try and give you a kicking - Jeex I cant believe Duncan has sunk to that depth. I know he has always been pro Crouch of late, argues his pOV intelligently and with conviction, and i have always RESPECTED his opinion, which is why I think his recent outbursts do him no service. I have my opinion and I am entitled to it, I dont expect everyone to agree or even anyone to agree, but recently most have simply FAILED to understand the difference between 'support' and 'simply not hating everything someone has done' - Lowe deserves everything he gets for the mistakes he has made and is responsible for - I have merely tried to point out he should not be hated for things beyond his control thats simple and logical in my book. I also tried to discuss that there is logic in some of teh approaches taken, and that failure to implement correctly, does not invalidate the idea completely...Where does that suggest I would not welcome change for the better? I also dont agree that Crouch is somehow innocent of all the crap we are in and is the replacemnet we should all be after... sorry just my opinion, yet this also seems to have wound up Duncan... I am then informed that this mystery person is 'fed up' with disention.. And then I am accused of taking this all to seriously? Makes me laugh my head off at the idiocy of it all. Its a fan forum FFS and the momemt we believe its more than that and wanting to silence disent or opinion that 'apparantly goes against the grain' it loses its credibilty.

I dont always agree with Nick, but I dont think he says much wrong here IMHO. And typical on here that the usual suspects come out and give him a kicking simply for trying to provide a balanced response rather than the ignorant band wagon jumping expected of late - 'with us or against us' mantra that seems to be taking over this forum... was that not what f*cked up S4E?

Like thats a problem for me....jeez and I am accuse dof taking it all too seriously....

Hopefully not, Lowe was never shy from sacking's in the past of those he appointed, although he traditionally leaves it late...too late could be argued, I think the only thing preventing this right now is money - the potential compensation payout on top of another managers wages...

Why? Trying to prevent alternative opinion is not going to change folks minds. If you accuse me of something, surely you expect a response?

HOw to win over the hearts and minds of fellow fans.... I think not Duncan and you have let yourself down with this sh!te...

See this is what I am on about - The trust, Nick Steve whoever are doing what they believ is right. I dont agree with alot of what they are doing nor do I agree with alot of their opinion, but its their right to have those opinions and share them on here and elsewhere. You have to respect that even if you dont agree FFS

Jeez... I have NO agenda, I want change as much as the next man as its clear we cant go forward as we are. I am merely suggesting that Crouch's offer is not as clear cut as he would like to suggest as I do believe he knows both Lowe nad Wile have not got a spare 2 mil burning a hole in their pocket. And there is a big difference between being unwilling to inject cash and being unable to... that is all. Second, I have no idea who this mystery person is, I have no idea as to whether they would be fantastic (which would be hoped ) or rubbish, I know nothing, but FF stated that this person was 'fed up' with somes fans 'surmonizing' etc... Well sorry, to me that is plain wrong... this is a fan forum , no more no less, where ALL opinion should be welcome and respected.

Sorry, I cant write anyone one off as I have no idea what they are purposing, I have no idea what they are suggesting and no idea as to what strategy they are likely to adopt. I think its fair to expect that this should amount to a darn sight more that simply ridding the club of Lowe and Wilde? We saw that last time and it got us no where, just created division and created further ingrained bittereness in those shareholders marginalised as a result... thats not a plan for success, its plan to oust encumbants and as we have seen simply ensures that we continue to have powerful voices on the outside ****ing in..... But I would welcome a strategy from whatever source that looks to stabalise the finances and build... But i stand by what was said about the 'fed up' bit> FFS Duncan is that really what he said? Because last time I looked this was a FANS site where we are all free to express our views and opinions. Wilde let us down, Lowe let us down (on more than one occasion), Crouch let us down. Things need to change, but that does not mean we should be silent an unquestioning of whoever is set to mount a challenge.

NO one doubts the benfits of a leaners squad of better players better paid, but the problem is it takes 2-4 years possibly to get rid of dead wood that is eventually out of contract, that cannot be sold on even at a low fee as these players refuse to take a wage cut at another club... so we would ahve been adding to the wage bill at the time. the theory is great, its putting it into proctise given employment legislation and contracts.

Duncan, I will support whoever comes forward with a solid plan, short term and long term to save saints from Admin and propose a brighter unified future, of that there is absolutely no doubt and I think I would be right in saying there is no siants who would not wish to do the same. However, posturising and surmonising? ...and there was me thinking this was a fan forum for us to express our views and opinions? What you have in effect alluded to above is sensorship.. as my two bit ramblings have some sort of negative effect on the discisions made by those highly placed ready to get moving? As my they might 'give up' because of one or two suromising fans? Sorry that is just plain daft. All I have ever tried to do is encourage some fans to get away from the unsubstantiated, the crap and ignorance that is so often bandied about - and share MHO that there is merit to some of teh things teh club has achieved in teh past and logic to some of the ideas - even if they failed in their implementation? If thats enough to scare your pals off... well sorry but how serious are they? Good grief man, I am one fan posting my thoughts on a FANS web forum FFS, it means nothing, and yet what you are suggesting; seems a lot like silencing any voice of opposition to me.... will we al be banned from SMS as well if they are successful? Will there be a witch hunt against those that even merely hinted that Lowe might have made a good decision , just ones in his life? I think we should be told, they sound a very sinister bunch to me? ;-) Maybe they will place one of those brain drain machines in the Itchen concourse - Where is Harry Palmer when you need him? ;-) PS. If this poster/mystery man is 'fed up' of 'listening' as you say - does this bode well for his relationship with fans? Unity is only ever possible by accepting others opinions and their right to express them.

Uhm Telfer, Crainey, McCann....all WGS

Call it what you will Duncan, 'pratting on' if you like, support who you like and good luck to you, but these kinda of empty promises, innuendo and cheap point scoring based on fantasy of mysterious players waiting in the wings is the same **** we heard before...just be careful thats all.

Would you not agree that there is a difference between 'willing' and 'being unable' ? if interchanged at random is this just not propoganda? Lowe can dissapear yup his own arse for all I care and take wilde with him, but that does not mean it makes Crouch's 'generosity' any more valid than teh bull**** of 'investment' spouted by Wilde, or that 'total football' would be a success spouted by Lowe.