Frank's cousin

Here we go again... UP the defender of the down trodden... 'insulting' 'pompous' ..bo!!0x - Can you not see the difference between what you believe is the 'real feeling' and the perception provided by many in the anti camp here? Why is such a question 'not helpful' .... because it irritates? because it might be closer to the truth than many would care to admit? This has nothing to do my 'my integrity'... I am sure there are many who are far better scoring on that account than me, but there are also many that appear to thrive in the 'disunity' as it serves a purpose. FFS when will someone have the balls to stand up and say what many are thinking but dare not utter for fear of the tribal backlash? I am going to say it and you can accuse me of being as insulting as you like, I really dont care because whilst you defend them, we never get the truth... now please read this carefully because I dont want it taken out of context: There are many fans on HERE who give the PERCEPTION that nothing is more important to them than ridding the boardroom of the evildoers and have felt like that for a long time. There are others that have jumped on this bandwagon without wanting to really debate the case. Sure there are many who do provide sensible debate and argue with logic and reason, but they too are often criticised and 'cyber bullied'. This is football, a game, nothing more nothing less and to see some of the rhetoric bandied about, the childish glee and schardenfreude witnessed when the mob gets its way is simply astounding... all we should really be looking for is success on teh pitch and if we have that I really dont give a flying feck who is in the board room, Lowe, Wilde, Crouch or the feckin man in the moon. To go on and on about the club only being put right if he goes are fighting for a victory for ignorance - the club will only be put right when we get financially stable and can move forward, who does that is less important than it actually happening - its a subtle but nevertheless important difference. If that sounds like patronizing sh!te or insults you, so be it, its not the intention but an opinion based on the perception of 4 or 5 years of posting on here and elsewhere. If Crouch comes up with a decent plan that will achieve this he will get my full support on here or anywhere, likewise anyone else, but i will not simply nail my colours to a mast based on the fan friendly rhetoric of the peoples champion. I dont have faith in Wotte, because I am presuming its more of the same taht sadly failed under JP. I do however want him to succeed and us stay up - and given our finances that will be no mean feat. Will it be enough for most? I doubt it, yet it was last season under Crouch and Pearson...what is the difference? The real difference, not the fact that we might hear a few more plesentaries eminating from the board room. Bring on the flak....

I agree its the thing that most infuriates about Lowe - but there are a couple of things in mitigation, the desire to finally see continuity after so much cahnge means a reluctance to sack again... and that these things do take time. With Crouch, yes he made a quick decision, but then apointed an untried, no different from Lowe, but he got lucky, although it did go down to the wire. Having got lucky though, I would have liked to see what he could have done with the squad, and Lowe's broom should ahve stayed away from that. I am sure when he sees the league 1 table and then looks at the mess we are in he probably regrets it, but thats another of his failings, his inability to come out and say he was wrong - the amount of positive PR that would have given him he seems unaware of....

Swansea are feckin cheeky sh!tes... 'will not be backed into a corner' 500K glad we told em to ling it at that price

Totally agree with that sentiment. The problem is that in most cases when you put it across like this is the response tends to vere to the 'If you are not totally against him - you must be with him' nonsense... also I find it difficult to reconcile the 'he should go just so there is greater unity.... thats ****** IMHO. We dont need to fight amongst ourselves over Lowe if we CHOOSE not to...the fact that division is highlighted plays to a certain camp. Rather than focusing on what divides opinion, in this pewrilous time is it not better to fucus on whate we have in common? The simple desire to see our team win and avoid relegation.

Ultimately, rightly or wrongly its simple - the other shareholders (or 45% ) support Lowe because they 'believe' he is currently the best option of the three - for managing the financials and avoiding admin - irrespective of what his decisons mean for the football at the club... thats why they support him.

Uhm... If it sounds like grandstanding, I humbly suggest its because there are 'many' that mioght not if it were that way round, otherwise it would merely be stating the obvious...;-)

Too true, and that in itself is no bad thing as it helps keep us all on our toes - better research hopefully to try and support or side of the logical argument.. BUt I tell you this. I would denounce any previously/current held belief and support whatever the majority instructed me to, if that was teh price to pay for avoiding relegation if offered now. How many on the other side of the fence would say the same? Because fro me, all my waffling, 'firm stance' analytics and posturing mean didly squat when it comes to the simple game

Totally agree, happy to point out and acknowledge Lowe many mistakes and flaws, just as happy to be inspired by Crouch's successes.... but is everybody happy to accept the flip side too? Lowes successes and Crouch's flaws? That is all some of us have been arguning for when it boils down...

LOL - fair cop.

NO Lowe got lucky with Strachan, as most fans though Oh Feck... thats the whole point. BUt in this case I was making the argument that Crouch tried an unknown after having given the job temporarily to untrieds in Dodd and Gorman - same as Lowe tried unknowns in Gray, wigley JP and now Wotte, Strachan was not unknown but a failure at the time... they all have one thing in common - we could afford them... CRouch got kluck second time around, Lowe got lucky with Strachan... thats the point I was making and its not me who wants it both ways, but those hailing CRouch as a 'football man' when he has no more (in fact alot less) experience than Lowe - but maybe he is luckier?

Think thats the difference between me and so many others (well one anyway ;-)) whereas some see the promotion of the unknownm especially from with in as a failure, I see it for what it was - an option we could afford and to be fair, its asumed that fans would see the wisdom of having someone at the helm who had an association with the club... whether it be wigley, Gray or Dodd, I can se the logic in it, even if the experience these guys had was lacking and thus risky.... yet you ahve David Armstrong on the Radio (day after Wotte appointed) SAYING WE SHOULD BE TRYING SOMEONELIKE HIM OR BENALI!!! ... surely the guy is joking, or is it that we believe in it when it comes from someone who has publically kicked the regime we welcome it it , yet when done by the regime itself its a hideous mistake by someone who does not understand teh game? double standards methinks. It was also interesting watching the about turns of those who thought crouch was nuts getting Pearson in - me included only for when it just about worked out for it to be seen as victory for Crouch - he just got lucky with the choice, that was all. And If Crouch could rely on such luck then he should be here now, because ultimately we forget its influence far too often.

UP they become 'sensitive time' because its overhyped and built up to be so - there are some for whom this serves their own agenda well and it would be naive to deny it.

Thats fair enough - and indeed is a rational for change - no argumnets from me, but I do have a problem with those who a) refuse to acknowledge that there were many factors that contributed to relegation, not just Lowe, b) refuse to acknowledge that he did some good things, and c) refuse to even analyse if there is any merit in a decision he makes before simply crying its sh!te. Some mistake this in their prejudice as some sort of luvvie rubbish, but its more important to analyse properly and unemotionally, what REALLY went wrong, what worked, if you are to be able to avoid the same mistakes again or make a call on replacements. We have seen too much willingness to simply support the 'hate' tag and jump onto the 'saviours' bandwagons without bothering to actually think for themselves and ask the right questions before drawing conclusions. It may be a results driven business, ultimately, but you also need to understand ALL that influences those results before nailing colours to masts.

Very true, and if made in that way, its a no brainer... Lowe and Wilde must go. I do suspect however, that many who if asked whay they want Lowe and Wilde out, will struggle to define the pros and cons that they analysed before reaching that decision. They will refuse to acknowledge that there were ever any benefits, despite the regular sellouts and successes we had before relegation. Seriously, all the last 5 years has proven is that in a sport that is so beholden to the golden goose that is SKY and the disproportionate way in why SKY fawns over the greed that is the prem, multiplied by the way its influenced and reduced loyalty of both players and managers, and further multiplied by all the usual and multiple variables that influence success in football/sport, means that its a VERY fine line between successs and failure to amintain top division status and the mess created by the huge financial diparity is hideous. Various attempts to overcome this have been made by various individuals - so far to no avail. For fans, I believe many have yet to come to terms with it all and need the hate figure to blame. Lowe fecked up many times, a bit like a cat with nine lives (or nine managers ;-)) who finally came to the end of his luck, but considering this is ONLY SPORT the vitriol and abuse aimed at not only Lowe, but those who decided it might not just be entirely down to one man, seems disproportionate to say the least... thats been my main gripe.

I can appreciate and respect what you say here SB2, but have to admit my take is slightly different... I do think that first and foremost should come supporting the manager and team, especially when we are in the mire, how we got there and who is to blame is secondary really... If the majority want a different cahirman and board, I am resigned to the 'so be it' - despite what soem may think I dont hold any affection for any of the incumbants...however, I do think we need to be careful about how we go about things. To see some of the comments aimed at those we believe responsible, to see the hatred and jumping on bandwagons without personally really questioning the pros and cons is worrying. Sure it human nature, the tribal culture etc, but is it actually more important than supporting the side?

Ok to be contoversial for a moment : Can someone explain WHY we need to be unified as fans anyway? surely the way to unify fans is success on the pitch WHOEVER is in the boardroom, because thats the acid test. If we have sucess on the pitch and are doing well, yet still we get gripes, moans and worse declaring the devils spawn needs to be removed from the club, it would demonstrate that for some its less about the game, the match and the support for the team, than the ingrained need to be 'loud and vocal' - Whether it is actually true or not, before you start on one of those 'how dare you be so insulting posts' -;-) you must be able to acknowledge that if reading some of the stuff on here as a neutral, it would certainly give that impression? Also where does it say in the 'rules of being a fan' that we cant all put aside the 'issues' we have with the board for the greater good of supporting the manager and team to avoid relegation? ONe could argue that that was teh most important thing right now, nothing else really matters, whether you believe Wotte and the kids can do it or not, is irrelevent in this 'perilous time'.

Stupid off the cuff remark for sure, but seems some are a tad over sensitive on this front - why the need to 'feel' constantly 'loved' by the club...? It seems its more important that someone talks nice and friendly to fans and they are the messiah; be insensitiuve to our needs...and tehy dont get given a chance.... jeez...how old are we?

Would have said the same thing - see the logic in the youth approach, yet acknowledged it was abig risk, hoped it would work out and been supportive of the kids, but want change when it was clear it was not working.

I think the behaviour thing is the reaction of the cornered animal - do you cower or come out fighting? Both pathetic in this case because the best way to show you are in control and CARE is to welcome open debate and discussion - win the argument with logic, not arrogance; be willing to learn from experience and those around you providiong sound advice. The whole Dutch debacle was anotyher classic case of Lowe misreading the fans - both with the Pearson thing and with the way it was 'bigged' up as the solution to get us out of the mess - sometimes the direct and honest spin free approach is the only way - but he may have 'cried wolf' too many times. With Crouch we get the complete opposite, and in my opinion equally prblematic. To 'heart on sleave' man of the people. Appointmnets based on club association rather than value that can be added, delays perhaps in doing the necessary because of how this would go down with fans - in effect running the club and talking in the media like a fan rather than a pro chairman - and whilst that might be superficially appealing it does not mean he has all the answers. The way forward? Three points at the weekend would be a big start!

I think thats a fair account Duncan and appreciate that you are in a difficult situation - thanks for clarifying it in this way as it makes sense. I guess from my perspective though, its never been about whether Crouch would be better than what we have or whether whether there would be greater unity - Naturally there will always be GREATER unity but not total unity if the the boardroom is populated by the most popular amongst fans - and Its clear that Crouch has the lions share of the vote at the moment... I dont know him personnally so can only judge on what we have seen publically, and my caution has stemed from the fact that his popular position stems from having made popular decisions that sit comfortably with fans (and they are no doubt good things in many respects) but appears to lack a real viable strategy for long term stability or progress - Wilde was the same when he arrived. With Lowe I guess he simply does what he sees as the best option whatever anyone else thinks - whether it works or not, but you do at least know what he is doing, even if it fails! e.g, no cash, = youth, overcome inexperience with style...bring in dutch coach and play total football on the ground - exciting and cheap! - seat of your pants rollarcoaster naiviety for sure, but not without the smallest grain of merit.... thing is had CRouch still been involved, because somehow they had agreed to work together, and been the man to taklk to the fans about these decisions, what would the outcome have been? He might have said - 'look, this is going to be one hell of a year, we're skint and need to save evry penny so its all kids to the pump and lets see if we can overcome the logical thinking that says it will never work, by a spirited total football style - its a rollercoaster, its madness, but hey, we are Saints all in this together, what do you say?' would we have been more supportive, or would we have naysayed as he would ahve been considered a splitter by teaming up with Lowe? This is what makes this whole thing so difficult, never knowing if decisions are considered daft because of analysis, or because of whose idea they were, and thats whats worn me down, because many of Lowes approaches have had merit - even those that did not work. He has just been so extremely crap at generating public support, due to his arrogance, and crassness - ''we are sop much more forgiving of the beautiful people'' (cant remember wher the quote comes from) So we have Lowe who opens his mouth and out pours crass arrogance, Crouch who opens his mouth too quickly whatever the consequences and Wilde who seems to have lost his tongue at the moment, what are we to do? I know we crossed swords last week, it was bound to happen sooner or later ;-) especially as I've given up the fags! Seriously, right now I dont support anybody ...except Saints, because the other 3 are old and ugly enough to fight their own battles, but the kids and Wotte are young and naive enough and need this more if we are to avoid relegation.... thats just my take on it.

I think thats the point though Duncan.... what you hear is going to be influenced by who you are close to, and thus will not be without bias?

I dont always agree with what you say SOG, but this is extremely well put and I would say I am in total agreement.

Just spat my coffe over the keyboard - these are LOL

But what would we be supporting? That is the question, and I mean I would have no problem in supporting him if I knew what he was going to do or how he was going to do it...because he has not shared any vision, plan, answers, just talked a good game.... the last time we had that scenario, wilde took over.... then Crouch ..... then Lowe/Wilde... all promising change for teh betetr and delivering nothing....

You cant say that - on what evidence? ;-) Seriously, and I do actually believe this , all three of the antagonists WANT the club secure and doing well, ...but, either dont have a clue how to do it, dont have the money to do it, disagree on how to do it. Crouch certainly wins/knows the PR game, but it all goes back to adding concrete plans and vaible solutions to his fan friendly rhetoric and he would be the wiiner by a mile.... which we are still waiting for.