Frank's cousin

UHm...not so sure, if you look at the 'facts' questioned, for some of these thise is still no eveidence - its just that the speculation has been repeated so many times that its assumed to be true... why up until yesterday, the general consensus on here was that John Corbett had gifted the Jacksons farm to Saints - and no one corrected this as it was used as a way of increasing the the 'deseserved nature of Mary's involvement' - now Mary herself has corrected this ... NO one has lied about this, but there are some who must have known the truth but kept quiet about it as it suited their purpose.... thats the kind of thing that to me is no better that Lowes PR plants. I would hazzard a guess that its become too late for fans to debate this from a truely open minded approach, because quite simply there is too much speculation presented as fact, too much beliefe in hearsay and gossip that over the years has become 'the truth' that has polarized opinion to such an extent that nothing is given a fair hearing.... and as Duncan freely admits, he has an agenda - he believes Crouch is teh best of teh bunch and will say and do anything to remove lowe and install crouch as its teh ebst alternative - fair enough he's being honest about it - I happen to disagree with him as I believe thisis not te time to once again listen to the fan friendly stuff, that still appears to have little or no substance, no matter what we see as teh failings of teh current board, just my opinion.....I however have no influence, so does that mean I haev no agenda? depends, really, at the end of the day, I dont think my opinion matters diddly squat to anyone, and certainly wont change the minds I enjoy debating this with most, because they are entrenched in their views... so can you call that an agenda? I dont think so, just an opinion.

I suspect though you have your sums wrong - For it to make sense and sell out ST would probably be needed to be included into at teh very least the £500 band so even selling out at 20000 members/owners at 11mil revenue, would probably almost wipe out ticket sakles revenue which is currently about the same, I susupect it would not actually generate much more I'm afraid....

Does it really matter who NIneteen is? When everyone else starts posting tehir REAL names on here, then you can demand Nineteen reveal his, until then its totally irrelevent - What the feck is this board turning into anyway - witch hunting those that have the opposite opinion - I thought we had freedom of speech here and that the board rules allowed for anomynity?

Well I doubt this is true... most will be saying 'there but for the grace....' but even if it were, when did what other clubs fans think have anything to do with it? Only if your 'ego' is so fragile that it needs some sort of artificial proping up by the 'club' - 'my club's bigger than yours na na nana na' Dont give a flying feck what anyone else thinks of us personally.

Thats the sadest indictment of them all...

TBF JOnah...that has been kinda what I have been saying - I want them all to put a sock in it until season end and focus on survival - would welcome positive change, but dont believe the Sychophantic to fan approach of Crouch or his goobyness is the answer either... but sitting on the fence like that means I'm a luvvie in the perverse logic of this site.

Which he has never promised....perhaps understanding how difficult it really is? I just stae that because it shows how easily the SAME situation can be spun to suit both sides... Crouch is great because he has offered ...lowe has not Crouch is crap because he promised and nothing happened, Lowe never promised what he could not deliver take your pick....

Where does it say though that it has to be an either or? Why is it not possible to see good and bad in both sides, because from where I am sitting that is the case.

Indeed, someone is dumping shares it wouuld seem...

I dont think that can be argued with Wes..... but.... (sorry) there is a difference IMHO between standard businesses and football clubs... True if the club through its actions destroys is customer base then it will certainly not survive financially, but a couple of things: Football fans by their very nature have an emotional relationship with the club that gives them a perception of moral ownership, we believe its 'our club' and believe we have the right to demand how 'our' club is run for 'US' - because unlike other businesses who alientate customers , we simply cant go and 'shop' elsewhere - we simply stop shopping altogether. Secondly, there are also many whose emotional involvement is dictated to by success or the glamour of the game itself - eg the customers who only shop when the shop is stocked with the very best product, that unfortunately we cant always stock, due to lines of credit with those suppliers. I dont believe out business sets out to dissapoint these casual shoppers, they are also fans, but perhaps more into the stock than the shop? In football there are many whose loyalty is to teh shop itself, not the stock, not its directors or shop assistants and for these whilst its sad to see the shelfs empty in need sof new and exciting goods, and the the building in need of a refurb, ideally at the instruction of new owners/directors, their loyalty is still there and will alwyas be so - because of the emotional links and its the ONLY shop in town!

Uhm, I would say there was opinion... The good or bad tag really depends on your existing POV, which as we know on here is unlikely to change really.

Thing is though Tame, we have to be realistic... its not Lowe's fault that his personal wealth is no where near these others, not even up to Crouches limited (relative) pockets. We simply dont know what Lowe would be prepared to put in (even if just to sure up teh share price and his own investment) if he had the resource of these others - I know some will say nothing, but there is no evidence to support that. Also its different for some of these clubs beiong in private hands... and if we expect Lowe as 6% shareholder to 'plough money in' we should also be asking teh Corbetts, LM, Trant, Wiseman, Wilde, Crouch to do the same.... Criouch has offered if Wilde and Lowe do, but why has he not included the other shareholders in this????

TBF MIck, Thats a differeenet thread. We can all great this as an error of judgemnet again in hindsight, and agree that compounding thins with Wotte is stupid... but that is not really relevent to the debate above... which I have to say is quite interesting.

I dont Wade seriously, I know there are pleanty of rational intelligent and fair minded posters on here who have analysed, thought long and hard about things and are stil very much in the Lowe out now whatever camp... and for the most part they put across their opinions very strongly but with respect and intel. The dificulty for me is, not the fact that they want Lowe gone... there are after all only a few that would argue against the need for a new direction.... but that the messages become mixed up, the unquestioning support for Crouch perhaps or the schardenfreude with which each new blunder is sometimes met. Lowe is not evil, but has made mistakes that have contributed to where we are, as have others in the grand scheme of things, and yes I would welcome a new direction, but at this present moment in time the suggested alternative is simpy lacking in credibility and I cant support something based, as I see it 'the populist appraoch' with lacks substance. Yes, I have also defended some of the decions because I do see logic in them, even though they have failed through a number of reasons, but when we look back at the history of where mistakes have been made I do think we underestimate the impact of simple moey in making them...

Classic LOL Harsh ...but fair. Sir

I can agree with that, but what I and others often get sick off is the speculation delivered as fact (cheap option, not got a clue stuff) as Lowe's reason... we simply dont know, afterall Crouch appointed two from within, then and unknown who at the time had NO record - why do chairman do this? I would happily discuss this this if there was someone who actually knew the FACTS rather than just speculated it was the easy option....

NO its probably quite accurate... you seem to equate NOT supporting Crouch with supporting Lowe, You seem to equate, not wanting doom and gloom and hoping against hope that Wotte pulls it off as.... wait for it ...supporting Lowe.... you seem to equate, not considering Lowe a budgie who has never done anything but bad...with supporting Lowe.... would you like me to go on?

Weekold and you often get away with it - dried out and all that - step in a fresh one and ...

Thing is Mick, if you look at it through the wide lens of objectivity - as a neutral and analyse the pioints per game and the fact we just stayed up with the old squad, on paper its not a great result... still I believe Pearson should have been given a go, but our current opinion of him IS influenced by the success he is having at leicester - something that we only have the real luxuray of assessing now, 8 months later - hindsight is such a wonderful thing afterall. Anyone who says they 'knew' Pearson would turn out good when the decsion was made is talking out their proverbial. I would go on to say that Lowe is probably well ****ed off that he did not have the benefit of hindsight.... the truth is though, had Pearson been kept on, and we were still where we are due the wholesale changes re the kids, then would fans have balmed Crouch initial appointment, or Lowe for keeping him on (the cheap option, could have told you that at the start of the season blah blah blah....) I thin we know the answer to that one..

I cant blame Wotte for towing the the company line in public - thats bets practice Interesting challenge to Crouch re the 2 mil share investment - problem is Snowballs if he baught 11 mil shares he would hold way over 30% and be obkliged to make the same offer for all the shares under stock markt rules and I dont think he has the cash or balls to go it alone...

Oh Dear Alpine... bottom line is we may go down because we are crap at the moment, this is in part due to having a coach who lacked experience in this division despite showing early promise, and the Chairman failing to act quickly - and then compounding the problem by appointing from within again, but the biggest factor has to be the lack of cash we have meaning we are playing with a bunch of inexperienced kids. Oh and not sure many of us really care about the value of Lowe's investment... ;-)

Thats a valid point MIck, but it does lead to a new question, If thi is a mistake that lowe has reapeated many times , the cRouch did, and that we see at other clubs, why does it keep happening? What makes these folk repeat these errors... if we could find genuine reasons Why these deciions were made, understand why they were made, maybe we could really offer solutions to prevent them happening again who knows, but I suspect it IT all about money at th end of the day - even though UP and Duncs muight disagre, until we get fly on gthe wall access to those conversations we have to assume everything else we hear has been released for a purpose.... 99% of all ddecisions in football these days are made due to money and we often dont acknowledge its significance.

Because mad milan is paying them more than any CCC club would... its money Alpine - the thing that RAULEs the footballing world - trust me if we had some, Lowe would have been in Feckin Russia after Ashavin before the gooners if it was no object - his massive ego would demand it surely?

No Alpine, we just read a post in response to Duncans and it made some valid points and good arguments thats all... simple really. I look forward to seeing Duncan respond - he is intelligent and witty enough to stand up forhimself and argue his case without you defending his honour... Not everyone sees conspiracy, and agendas in everything someone posts...

The amounts trading are minnimal - there are sme 28million shares out there so a couple of hundred thou is nothing significant...