Frank's cousin

Does it no amount to the same difference? he was not 'sacked' per sae.... Duncan I will happily admit, that he deserved a chance and with the benefit of hindsight its easy to see this as another MISTAKE, but had we lost against SU that day and been relegated it would ahve perhaps been a totally different story and that's what some fail to recognise when turning this into a simple 'example' of another feck up.

SEriously Alpine, I am honest with myself - I believe we need change and that Lowe/Wilde axis of evil doers needs to be replaced - I freely admit that sadly some of teh rationale for this is not justified, some very muuch is... I will also freely admit that I have and probably will continue to support//defend ideas and approaches that often does not get much support from the traditionalists - because I really do like the 'idea' of new approaches be it woodward (in the right role), utilizination of youth and home grown talen (in the right balnace with experience as necessary) etc... If an idea has merit IMHO, I will say so even if it comes out of the devils mouth... I have not to date however, seen any evidence from Mr Crouch that he has the answers - merely the fan friendly stuff in abundance - for me he is old school multiplied by populist = little contrete substance - that is my opinion that all. If he comes out with something concrete and interesting I will listen. If you see conspiracy and agenda in every post and believe this is wrong, why are you not equally critical of Duncan's blatent and addmitted propoganda on CRouch's behalf? Or is it just posts that disagree with your POV that you have a problem with?

Wade, have a read of the follow up and then let me know what you think

Thats very true, and there is also a tendency ion the higher leagues, certainly th prem where demand often outstrips supply for fans/customers to be taken for granted, afterall they are not the source of teh greatest revenue stream which is sky... that changes though as you go down the leagues where all of a sudden the gates become teh single largest source of revenue and greater care should be taken to ensure its maintatined... its not just about results as there are plnty of clubs that have poor results yet maintain the gate...loyalty in football is afterall one of its naive charms.... but our situation is contributed by lack of home form AND the feeling of hopelessness and distain directed at the board... much of it justified, some of it not... and its the fact that many also fiocus on teh elements that are NOT justified that keeps the likes of Lowe in there fighting. I believe he thinks that the areas where he ha made mistakes, are just that, mistakes taht can happen to anyone in sport or football, and so is unrepentent... on the other hand those criticisms that are viocally rammed home and the way in which its often done, are often those unsubstantiated, he simply shruggs off as idiocy and thus the very valid criticisms become lost amongst what lowe considers the rants of the lunatic fringe... = does not listen in his stubborn arrogance. Its a worthwhile question... will fans look at this objectively and try and understand the 'enemy' before launching an attack at the weakness - the way to really win, or continue to dilute the very real message with the rumours, gossip and prejudice shouted loudest?

I am not supportive of Crouch Alpine... that does not mean one is automatically a supporter of Lowe, when you finally grasp that, maybe we will spot the flying pigs?

Think thats a bit of a leap - the league 1 bit... unless it was thought that relgation would have seen those high wage earners WANT to terminate their own contracts and leave on frees etc? bit far fetched surely?

Quite... I believe Crouch acted very responsibly and as I would have expected him to... but as you probably guessed, that was kind of the point. When previous regimes have appointed managers untried or otherwise, there has been a lot of critism about the so called lack of faith resulting in rolling or short trem contracts for managers... 'if you believe its right...why not back it up' etc, but more importantly, it highlights that CRouch like the rest of us had NO idea how Pearson would pan out - it would ahve been fantastic had we known he would begin to develop very rapidly into a strong figure at this level, and I do think had even Lowe known how well he is currently doing, it would haev swayed hisopinion, but no one had teh benefit of hindsight at that time...

But its been stated many times that Pearson was not demandeing re remuneration - eg cheapper than what we currently have?

Why did he not offer him a decent contract term before the season end? would have made Lowe and Wilde think twice about the change if a big payout was needed? Would Pearson still be with Saints had we been relegated and Crouch still in charge? (There is again teh miscionception on another thread that Pearson was sacked....by Lowe, when he simply did not have his contract renewed....)

Its a vicious circle really, but 'blame' is the wrong word. The fact reamins that whilst attendences drop, the financial pressures on the club increase, be it cash flow or bank pressure who may have loans securred against ticket sales particularly ST advances. Thus the club cant sustain certain contract levels, and costs are cut, which in turn leads to poorer results from poorere players and which means less fans have the appetite for spending good money watching poor football and bad results... no one can blame fans, but you can see the impact that a reduction in guarranteeed income can have on the pitch... What we need to stop doing is pretending... pretending we are somehow bigger than we are or holier than thou - our fans are just like EVERYBODY elses, when times are bad, and money is tight, there is always something else to spend the money on, especiallly if what is on offer is not great. Blame NO, but there is a real impact isf the numbers decline, that is a simple fact.

The only reason these guys enter the frey is either 'lifelong fan' or pure ego... both of which do not make for rational behaviour - entering football is never going to make you money, unless its possible to aset strip, or take a crap side in the lower leagues, invest say 20 mil, get them to teh prem, survive one seaosn and sell for 100 mil, which in these climes is not the easiest route to making money,... so the sensible ones stay well away, unless billionnaires able to throw away money... The ego is driven by te percived 'glamour' of being involved in such a media driven spectable... so why come back and get so much abuse when things are not so great? Can only be the madness of ego, desperate to put things right? Lowe is not poor by any stretch, but I doubt he can afford to really write off 800K in shares... but is it worth the flak?

Many have hailed the dissapointment in Wilde ...'turncoat' and various other less flattering accusations etc when re-siding with Lowe. But apart from the the falling out with Crouch, what is in it for him? The property down turn ha sperhaps scuppered any potential property development oppportunities at Jackson's farm, even if in it for the long game, he would as a 16% shareholder still be able to influence this eventually from the outside, and maintained favour oor popular support? My gut feeling is one of control. At the time he came back, there was serious (well speculated) attempts by Crouch to bring in 'investment' - to sele the club potentially to consortia of various groups who with the exception of SISU, turned out to be tyre kickers... did Wilde see this as potentially leaving him on the outside? and not having the long term input into property he in effect owns 16% of? This is speculation naturally, but it does seem odd that Wilde did this about turn... did he really fall out with Crouch so much that its unrepairable? Did he really believe that going with Lowe would save his share capital or give it a better chance of a return than staying on the fringes and keeping Crouch in power? I think we can all accept Lowee came back because he felt he was teh only one who Could stop the rot, and his ego must have also been desperate to be the 'saviour', but Wilde is the one I just cant figure out.

I think Derry is spot on really, though.... we might not have the same quality, but we should ceratinly be trying to expolit the flanks a lot more.... our last successful period? When we played Mazza and Bridge overlapping down the left - no coincidence that Beattie scored a hatful with the verity of crosses that came in.... what we see today is that even when there is space or its obvious the wide player should go down the line, we see them cutting back in (or passing backwards) for a cross field pass, back into the conjestioed mid field...

I would disagree about the 'clarity' statement UP, When some were slagging MC last time around there were planety using her fathers 'gift' to ram home the deserved nature of the appointment. John Corbett was undoubtedy a true saint and deservedly gets the plaudits anyway for his love and contribution to the club without the need for 'extras'. Its relevence is that is symptomatic of the way some things are communicated selectively - At the very least Duncan admits it, he knows he is only getting one side of the story, is biassed and defends his position which I can respect, if not agree with. I believe the issue some have with MC, is that does the family connection justify a position on the board (or does it matter how shares were obtained, either inherited or bought?) and secondly was she effective last time.. my issue is not so much with MC, as Crouch uniting with other shareholders is no different form Lowes little army oof mates, but that quite rightly Lowe and Wilde were criticised for being vocal about the leadership during a sensitive time on teh pitch last seaosn, and yet CRouch and MC seem happy to repaet those very errors... its all political....

This is what really bugs.... made up stuff to support your outrage... What is this issue with Lowe and a wage and a compromise agreemnet for termination of his excutive contract? its legal and fair as we all have similar clauses in our own employment contracts - just because the figures seem higher than we coudl expect its only relative. With respect to teh radio staion and insurance - the insrance arm was not losing moeny, but nor was it a making any, it was a long term thing and is similar to schemes run at many other clubs....the radio staion was agian a long term thing and yes the club subsidised it to about £250k a year when in the prem, because it was considered that it would eventually generate revenue from additioanl advertising as well as providing a SERVICE to fans.... FFS slag Lowe for the feck ups, but at lesast stop at making up ****** .... otherwise your post lacks all credibilty. There are more fans on here who folk consider luvvies because they defend against the made up rubbish, that would be far more sympathetic to the 'Lowe's a moron' calls if fans stayed with the truth rather than making up rubbish every five minutes..

Uhm think that depends though on whether you believe the current board will fight tooth and nail to avoid admin at whatever cost as a good or bad thing - I have to admit, for me the avoidance of administration is more important than avoiding relegation - which is equally a horrific thought, but administration is the worst of the possble nightmares...

Once again you are wearing the jesters hat it seems... as you have completely misunderstood the point... which is, as you missed it first time.... a little fairy tale....Yes the little piggies Crouch and MC do indeed claim moral victory , but there's is a bit like building a house on the sand out of straw a lovely to look at house certainly but still bult quickly on the shore - as they have yet to back this with plans that appear viable and historically have not delivered either on that front.... yes Lowe is the big bad wolf, but a wolf who knows that it matters not how good the house looks if its not build on strong foundations - now this wolf may be a selfish arrogant sod, and he may keep getting his pug mix wrong so that it seems the house will never be built, we could even argue he should get a different set of builders in if he really wanted to see a solid structure, but that does not mean you cant agree with the general building approach...

FEck me... cant believe you ent on Wiki to look this up! Cool. but have to agree, i think we need less Uboots and 5 extra battleships to win this war - .... where's Alpine, he would surely say I was talking ****** and that its extra cruisers we need not battleships.... ;-)

Uhm - I think the problem is that as fans we belive we have emotional ownership of 'our ' club - so anything that looks like its even remotely 'shady' get out goat. I think what has happened is this. NOTHING legally dodgy happened.... If it had it would have been either refered to the FSA/Monopolies and Mergers commission and teh police - that is FACT. What hppened was what usually happens in these sorts of deals... the morality is questioned by those who have an emotional if not financial interest in the business transactions. Its a case of teh accusations in teh program, these were speculation and allogations that whilst we may have found morally difficult to accept were not really making any legal challenge.... and whet we do often conveniently forget is that MC and family. LM etc all made money too from the deal - yes some got shafted as in most business deals, but not illegally so. And the degree of which depends on your own moral and ethical interpretation. MOst of the stuff that is written since, has become clouded with prejudice and myth. But it could be said has become the ROOT of the nagativitythat has followed Lowe since that time - it swells when twe are doing badly on teh pitch and disipates when we do better , but is always there under teh surface bubbling away - because the likes of Richard Chorley refused to let it die - We have to ask ourselves was carrying that bitterness for so many years under the surface a positive factor for the club? Only for those who enjoy the schardenfreude when we are in teh mire and can really stick the boot in. That is I guess why I have tried to remain sat on the fence...

Thats a very fair assessment Hypo, but there is one telling line for me that probably best describes why I have teh views I do... 'Regardless of who is right or wrong' You are totally correct that whilst Lowe is here there will probably never be any unity amongst fans now, no matter what happens on the pitch... but for me that statement is the one that I have always thought to challenge... I believe in this case both sides have done wrong and done right - in varying proportions for sure, but I also dont think ANYONE should be subjected to abuse or hatred simply because the majority believe its right to do so - especially as teh reasons for that opinion has in the past been based on rumour speculation and gossip often portrayed as fact - and yes that goes for the other side to. Simply by pointing that out, I get teh luvvie tag 0- can live with that, but its the 'blah blah blah ignorance' of some that just get my goat...arhrr I know I should not rise to it, but we are all only ever human. Jeez, even Duncan and I were kicking each other last week, yet i do respect his opinion, even if I cant agre with him! I dont think Crouch is evil or bad, nor MC, just folk who believe that maybe their passion is enough to give them moral victory - I can admire their passion with everybody else, but not the conclusion, as repeated calls for substance have never really yielded anything. Therefore IMHO, I cant see how chnage again right now is going to any good, and suspect that although ther might be a short term positive, the longterm might be even worse, as passion forms the larger part of valour and risk...as we have seen before.

No Alpine, out of the 401 or so paid up members probably about 380 are enlightened and intelligent - but from your POSTS, I dont consider you one of them.... ;-)

Alps would probably say I'm 'stuck' on the fence with the post up my ar... ;-) THis is now getting me confused!

You are totally corerect Alps... but its called using your OWN brain first before jumping on the bandwagon of ingnorance and drawing onclusions only based on emotion and not understanding and reason. 'passion' and 'emotion' ? got to laught mate - you simply dont have a clue do you....

True! - I have to admit I am deeply stuck on this fence as I see too much miseray awaiting us on either side..

Alpine are you really that much of a simpleton/idiot or are you simply out to provoke? Yes I have entrenched views, I never denied it - and its entrenched on the fence in most things... so what is your problem.... I have never seen you defend your entrenched views with any facts, simply insult, so I think that says more about you than me... PS why dont yopu engage you brain for a change instead of just sniping and respond to say the Jacksons Farm thing hey? too close to the fecking bone?