Frank's cousin

HaHaHa I'm laughing at you for taking it so seriously that you 'worry' about other fans 'laughing at us' - are you 12 ans worried about the playground?

For me it's not a question of realism v pipe dreams, or happy flappy v moaning or even simple positive or negative outlooks... It simpler than that which is I simply don't understand the point of 'accepting' that any club, ours or any other will always be destined to be mid table at best. Just what is the point of being 'happy' just being in the top division? Somehow the hype and the riches of the prem seem more important to some than competing to win things- the whole fricken point of competitive sport. We all know that realism is now dominated by both money and a club's status in keeping and attracting talent... But that again is not the point. If you aim for average or survival, what does it say about the club you support? It says you 'know your place' and are happy to be an also ran... I just don't believe that should ever be the target in sport- it should be to be the very best you can. If fans are happy to accept the best we can be is 12th, why bother being in the prem, why not be happy in the championship and be at the top winning and being more competitive? No one is saying we will get there, but having that aim is surely much better than accepting 'our place' - which other clubs are only too happy for us to do. Many years ago we were third division south... Should we have accepted we were too small for div 1? Or when relegated under LM accepted we were too small and been happy back in div 2 ? The money the top clubs have and as such their ability to attract and keep players stacks the odds against others breaking into that clique, but they are not zero. Forgetting that seems to go against the whole purpose of sport.

I believe that was 'In the Navy' - tehfact that I know that is rather worrying...

...80s pop song.... versus our 'song' - an 18th centurey gospel song... not sure you can use that one as a 'negative'

NOt quite sure why there is this obsession the 'best league in the world tag' - which seems to be the work of the SKY/PL jugernaut... The PL remains the biggest global TV export becaus ethey have bene so clever in their marketing and hype. To be fair to the prem, we can say that there are 4 or 5 sides who should be competitive at the top which is more than in other main leagues - yet whilst its easy to mistake the global financial success that it is with 'best', and even with some great European successes in the past few years, it cant be said to have offered the 'best' quality football. OK so it depends on how you want to define best football - some will just go by results, but for me its about HOW sides play, and in a way why I love the what Saints have been trying to do... Swansea should also be applauded and its just a shame that within the PL, siides like Swansea and us will not have the 'pull' or perhaps the finances to compete within the Prem at the very top, no matter what. Simply put, culturally whilst the media and the armchair fans consistently are told that good players need to move to the 'top' teams, we will always see talent move before we benefit from it. The difference in Germnay seems to be that even though the best talent will move, players tend to wait until they have acheived something with their home club first...eg. what odds Luke Shaw will move before he is 19/20? In Germany he would probably stay till 22/23... less 'want it now'. Yes Bayern dominate, and yes clubs like Dortmund will see their best talent leave and will have to start again, but AFTER they have been to a CL final and possibly won it, not before the club even qualify... same with Bayer Leverkusen a few years back. Its that churn below Bayern that is good for the league and fans - Although the 49% max stock sale limits investment in other clubs, it also prevents the situation that has happened in the PL, with Chelsea and City buyiong there way to the top and staying there not on the influx of home grown taklent, but on 200mil + spending sprees and wage payouts - What clubs like Dortmund have shown is that you CAN compete without that sort of wage bill and transfer budget, even if you end up losing that talent and have to satrt again - it why I will always admire clubs like that far more than our Champions league contenders or even Bayern. Ultimately, I guess its because if you took Saints with its current squad, manager and say 30 mil investmnet in the summer, we might with luck and a good season get 8/9 spot. Same deal in the Budesliga and we would probably qualify for the CL. In both cases probably lose several players, but it woudl not be so bad after they had helped us to a CL season...

in a word ... Genius:adore:

Very Droll...forget moral highground, try simple legal perspectives.... Jeez. This thread is about views on that incident, mine are simple. Laugh at the ****s making dicks of themselves because they think they are hard... if some have such sensitive egos that they feel they have been 'disrespected' ...jeez.. am laughing - so now its alright to give someone a kicking because your ego has been bruised by some ****s shouwing 'disrespect... it just gets fricken sadder

THough about this, but cant help posing a couple of thoughts... For me the cover up is what they should do time for - because that has for years denied the victims families the truth and cast balme on ordinary fans. The police action on the day was respoinsible for the tragedy. Massive mistakes were made in basic crowd safety no doubt, but these were mistakes made against a backdrop of the times, and several things tragically came together to make it happen; the police mistakes, the ground not fit for purpose, the cages/fences, preventing escape to the pitch, the wrong decisons made by sone or two in not sheperding fans to the right pens etc, the confusion and inactivity during and after preventing lives being saved by ealier paramedic attention. Understanding all these factors and identifying those accountable is important for both the families and to ensure such a tragic combination of events could not happen again, but is 'justice' really served by putting people on trial for mistakes? Especially when the whole atmosphere surrounding football at the time was one of fear and associated problems. The cover up though was without doubt criminally shameful. I am not saying I am right with the above, but often when faced with such tragedies, its easy to think that justice is about locking folk up, but I wonder whether its easy for us to find a black and white guilty verdict because we were not in the situation making those decisions? Is the lead copper on the day guilty because he made the wrong decsions, or should it be his boss for putting an inexperienced at football officer in charge on that day? I am not so sure. Would be interested to hear others thoughts on this.

Oh I Do Turkish... just find it a bit fricken pathetic that because some ****s are acting up 'goading' or whatever, some feel they 'deserve' a what they got - however you want to paint it, the choice of whether to repsond to the goading is down the the individual - you steam in for a ruck like an idiot, or you laugh at the pathetic losers who think they are big an clever. Ultimately its abvout what you feel is morally justifiable - these are pathetic fans thinking they are 'ard at football, its not like someone is threatening you kids or missus in the street... make all the 'excuses' you want, its still an individual choice how to respond, and repsonding in the way some of our fans did makes them equally as stupid as those goading in the first place..... 'hey but its all OK, cus they was asking for it'....

... woosh....

Saddest thing is some seem to think its 'acceptable' or 'he got what was comming to him' simply for cherering his own sides goal... it may be what happens, 'what else can he expect', but read all that you have written again, and tell me you cant see how pathetic it is... why in football, should we accept this 'excuse' for violence, simply because someone sat next to you supports the other side? Sure the seperation of fans is good for atmosphere, banter etc, but if some still think someone celebrating a goal is worth a 'kicking' simply because they are sat in the wrong end... you need to ask yourslef some serious questions. Pretty pathetic.

The Way Americanisms now seem to be the norm... when the f**k id we start 'dating' instead of 'going out'? Business speak - people who do things 'proactively' - we used to do things, then we had to do them actively, now proactively - yet we still do the same friggin things... Turkish The Daily Mail and that 'provocative' ***t Littlejohn Stuck in the 1880's Socialists (and arses like Derek Hatton) People who admire Thatcher You're SOOOO Money Supermarket - 'Epic' **nts Go f**king Compare Ads for anything in the building trade/white van drivers, featuring the 'loverable' cockney voice over (See why I cant stand TalkSport) Jesse J and that Irish ponce on 'the Voice' which Mrs F's c and daughter seem to like Sam Alladyce Wellbeck's hair People who cant use supermarket self check out machines Self check out machines that keep telling you to put the item in the bag...then to take it out again ...and wait for assistance .... after every fricken item People who win the Lottery, go public and then say it 'wont change our lives'... boring feckers

The reality is, that should they actually be successful in running the club properly, within its means and with sensible approach to building infrastructure, eg training ground, academy etc and thinnking longer term, they will not be pushing for promotion beyond L1 for some time consideralble time... but they could if they do that, begin rebuilding their reputation. I just wonder if their 'Loyal' bestest fans, will have the patience for such an approach or whether demands for better players will push them towards a higher risk strategy...again.... will be interesting...., especially if evenutally the property developers make appropriate promised and then do a Brighton on them, making them play elsewhere whilst selling the ground on teh promise of a new stadium to come.... That would worry me and my minority trust ownership...

.... Uhm.... fine line between 'underwriting a failing business to keep it afloat - usually characterised by NO progress or improvement and often continuing failure, but kept alive by rich benefactors..... and what ML/NC have done - INVESTMENT, characterised by massive improvements in efficiencty, growth and longer term success as well as an increase in value of the assett. Sanchez fails to diffrentiate between them... and thus fails in his attempt to WUM... LOL

First up, to those who fought for their club to survive, you have to appreciate they have so far worked hard and it looks like they will succeed in saving their club.... putting all the rivalry to the side, you have to acknowledge thats a pretty good effort to date. But, there are several issues and questions that taint this success, which teh football community seem happy sweeping under the carpet just as much as the fans of pompey. Perhaps its a recognition that there are MANY clubs operating above their means in a high risk way, and so taking too high a moral stance by many would be hypocritical, who knows... But it is galling that no one from pompey trust has ever acknowledged that the fans BENEFITTED as a direct result from those 'mismanaging' the finances... until they do, the trust leadership will also be tarnished by the simple fact that their club failed to pay debts of 120mil to creditors and the tax man, whilst winning the cup... as many of tehir fans have said without any hint of a moral compass, history will record them as winners and in 20 years no one will remember the 'cheating' that got them there... and sadly that is so true. Other questions remain: 1. They do not yet actually OWN the club, they ahve merely and agreement in place with BDO/Portpin to purchase the groun for 3mil + add ons, plus and agreement to buy the club for about 500K to clear an agreed CVA, and using teh remaining parachute payments to clear footballing debt... they are hopeful they will own the club as of the 22 April 2. Contrary to what te PST have said, they still seem to be reluctant to be fully transparent on a) the actual amount of cash devived from fan pledges, b) the amount of cash underwritten by HNWs to make up the shortfall, c) the current and realistic level of trust v HNW share, d) the fact that as a member of trust your £1000, is not a share and thus is worth nothing, e) What the actual financial position will be given that the liabilties known will be: 1) add ons to chinny (prior to any prem promotion.....) 2) 1.45 mil to PCC 3) 8mil + to football creditors 4) Outstaning fees to BDO 5) 500K to CVA 2 (absorbing cva1) 6) any other liabilties and thus how that compares to their initial cash position? a) total pledges recived to date b) total contribution from HNW individuals that is converted to equity c) Totol contribution from HNW that is expected to be paid back, or converted to further equity at teh expense of trust percentage ownership d) final parachute payments e) Existing cash in the bank ...and finally, IF as the trust have recently quietly been celebrating, they see a surplus of a few mil as a result of the INCREASE in parachute payments (as its calculated on a share basis of the current prem league payouts)... do they not think that rsather tahn planning for a big splash and L2 domination, they might, just might claw back some integrity by incresing the the amount available to creditors of the failed CVA1 and CVA2? ....Or have the creditors and the 120mil been conveniently forgotten in the the euphoria? NO class

First up, like most resonably decent people, I find the 'rejoicing' in the death of a person shameful, and I say that as someone who would be happy to state categorically that she was 'not a very nice person' - But I am sure even Elvis Costello would not now literally be 'tramping the dirt down' But I have a huge problem with those that are elevating her into some sort of 'great Britain' - those eulogizing obsessively with the collective schophantic cliche. Anyone who still looks at her legacy and defends her approach is forgetting the grim reality of her approach...IMHO. I like think I have a fair grasp of the political changes that have occured over the last 3-4 decades, and like most who view these things by dissassociating political alliegence/ideology when making a judgement on her actions, you can see its not as clear cut as thus thrusting tehir politics down our throughts like to suggest. Britain in the 70s WAS breaking, the Unions DID have too much power and years of lack of investment and **** taking by the Unions had crippled our heavy industry... Thatcher knew that stranglehold needed to be broken, and that economically, these industries needed to become either self sufficient, modern and productive or die. Thing is there were different ways of doing things. In Japan and Germany, legislation was such that it encouraged management/worker forums, giving wprkers a say and a share of the companies they worked within - this change from firebrand unionism to effective collective commercial reality was achieved without breaking entire industries - redundancies and improvemnets in efficiency achieved through colaboration and discussion. Thatcher was about a big stick - forget the need for the shakeup , that was a given, but the way she delivered it was brutal. A complete lack of compassion and IMHO a complete lack of foresight on the impact this brutality would have on whole communities - yet she remained undaunted as this never effected here core southern vote. That was the shameful part in my opinion. The fact that communities went to nothing overnight and left now two generations without hope. Communities that had pride and respect, pulled apart and left with as burnt out as the cars that replaced pretty front gardens in countless 'estates'. This is not about political ideology, like I have said, I can fully accept that change was necessary, but the way she went about it suggested she either was too stupid to see the consequences, did not care about teh consequences, or it was calculated to errode the core support of the oposition... whichever its does not suggest that we should be putting her on a pedastal as some great leader... I will not celebrate her death, that is equallly shameful, but neither will I do the usual British thing and somehow forget about the grim reality that she precided over, nor the grim legacy that she left behind.

I take it all as a compliment - he is just so old school that he cant see how 4231 attacking pressing sides can do well in a league where too many teams are more frightened of losing and thus play defensive mixed boring stuff... so sides like us and Swansea are seen as beatable, even if we play nice football... hes just old school and become a lucky charm. he predicts we lose and more often we win... keep in going Lawro!

As usual Turks you spectacularly mist the point. Its clear as day that the decsion to replace adkins was one made before the season started, with Cortese making a decision that Nigel was brought in to do one thing and someone else would come in to take us further - he could not get who he wanted so Nige was given a stay of execution - not only that, your fail is even more spectacular since the whole point is about how if making a moral judgement on the clubs behaviour, then whether a manager is performing well or not, is liked or not, is completely irrelevent... .... but you have ignored/missed this completely - The point I was making was about the blatent hypocracy shown by fans - some so pious in their moral outrage as it suits, yet happy for clubs to behave in exactly the same way when it they believe the manager is no good and not popular... you obviously are back in your failing to grasp a simple point mode... please try harder darling.

Thing is Norway, fans are two faced on most every issue - Before anyone makes a moral judgement on the way someone is treated, you have to remove performance/history or what is deserved etc out of the equation. In effect if you want to make a moral judgement about the way he was replaced, you have to say would you come to the same moral conclusion had it been Steve Wrigley, or the a manager we hated and were glad to see the back of? - Sorry, but despite what some now say, I believe the majority of the 'moral outrage' (some with an almost dailymailesque lack of self awareness/diana effect collective 'grief') has been driven by the fact what Nige has achieved, he's a nice guy and some who simply dont like Cortese rather than any genuine moral or ethical POV. That may make me a complete cynical barstard in some folks eyes, but I suspect its nearer the truth than the football fans suddenly becoming all holier than thou and integrity transplant.... Branfoot and the way fans behaved in getting him replaced is perhaps the best example - he was a ****e manager, but was still a person, yet we want clubs to be all moral when its usits us, yet wield a ruthless axe...when it suits us....But where would football be without the hypocracy?

... I cant compete with that, but it is worth pointing out that he seems to suggest that its a great victory for the cheats to once again have failed to pay someone what they are owed... Even if there is justification for a reduced amount, given how many players have now not been paid what theye were owed, I am struggling to see how anyone with an ounce of integrity can see this as a good thing... Players are over paid and can be excessively greedy, but if you agree to pay them those amounts in aneffort to find success, then surely the very last you do is pay for it? Or have I missed something? Its this consistent and constant refusal to accept that any success they had has not been paid for and as such is pretty much forever soiled by the 'cheating' tag, that suggests either they are all stupid or lack integrity or both. Those few pompey fans who have acknowledged this, and I do know a few, have my sympathy... the rest can go do one. What Allen has always failed to recognise is that as a pompey paper, they could do a huge amount to try and restore integrity and honour to their club by encouraging more of their fans to accept their gamble became an unfair competitve advantage and thus discredits any achievements... If the PST and more fans had that attitude, they would get my full support despite any local rivalry... but sadly teh majority seem too stupid to see it, encouraged by the local rag... pretty sad really.

Think you are missing a vital point though. You are quite right that he should not be above criticism for things he gets wrong... No one should be, but too often the way some go on about the things he has done wrong, you would think they were enormous blunders - multiple relegations etc instead of parking and booking fees... It's about perspective. The irony is comical- whenever us Lowe luvvies TM, would point out something Lowe had done that was positive, the usual comeback was that it was irrelevant as all that counted was what happened on the pitch.... Now we have 2 promotions and a side playing an enviable style and yet we get bed wetting about ticket tax.... It's not the criticism of Cortese that leads to accusations of Agenda driven ******, but the disproportionate level of critics over what most see as minor issues.... And it's usually the same few who are quick to criticise at every opportunity... Draw your own conclusions

Its threads/posts like this that remind me why its not worth the £5 any more... thinly veiled agenda driven critique masquerading as opinion... Never understood the obsession with who has influence over the playing side - check out the systems abroad and see 'coach gets on with using players at his disposal purchased by presdients and committees' - only in this country where the tradition amongst the old school seems to be that the only coach the manager is interested in was the one he booked for team travel... brown envelopes and returning to former clubs/agents to pick up their favoured players... reminds me of Redknapp at West Ham when he transferred some 120+ players in his time there with only a handful ever making a first team appearance....( with one standing out, some swedish player - West Ham paying close to 3 mil, the Swedish club getting about 800k... the rest? (ref. Tom Bower; Broken Dreams) and how many transfers at Pompey on stupid money? Yet the media and some fans seem happy that this should be perectly acceptable and that the manager should have the full say in these matters... why does this idea of the 'traditional manager' still have such a hold over so many? Out dated bolox IMHO

Thing is the question should be more about whether due to a rather unique opportunity to RENT at a very affordable rate, rather than have to BUY or BUILD as mpost clubs have to if they want to increase capacity and thus revenue, West Ham have beed in effect given an unfair advantage versus other clubs? NO one can doubt getting 2m il a year rent rather than nothing is better for the local council and getting use from the stadia is also good... but for a club that is hideously in debt and thus not able to build a new satdium, getting this advantage is pretty good fortune, and you could make interpret that as an 'unfair' advantage...

Would have shoved someone like Shaw in against San Marino for the experience... and stuck Lahm on the Right. And yes they would take the leading Scorer regardless of age... which I guess is why since including 66... 6 WC final apprearance even when talent levels have beem lower...eg 2002.

Greater intensity - and some subtle tactical improvements - mades subtle changes, and has somehow brought the best out of JRod and Davis. We need to be greatful to Nige in a huge way though, not just for the promotions, but for the grounding - Poch, has been able to bring about his style rapidly, because the foundation for this style was already there - but going to a 4231 and having more mobilty up front have paid dividends... Plan B? Think its more subtle than a full on change.... next season will be interesting