Frank's cousin

Way too logical for this forum professor... ;-)

Harsh but fair.... but in mitigation, typing is difficult as I only have two fingers... ;-( Would prefer an alternative sponsor than LLS though

;-) indeed!

Does a nice line in Tshirts though?;-)

I would consider the trust neutral then... if they are pro lowe, but have welcomed and suggested CRouch be broight in, does this not suggest an element of neutrality?

Think hes talking about how intouch they would eb NOW - LM was a different era, past his prime when he went to sunderland and England - does not diminish what he achieved in his prime, but based on TODAY, the others are probably a better bet!

FFS how is that a wind up - chist some of you and FFTF are jsut feckin wierd - NIneteen prefers HOddle over WGS. Whats that got to with anything else? Jeez.. his commenst about WGS whilst maybe harsh to have an element of truth in them as hard as it may seem to hear. Yet your obsessive lowist sheite is clouding your better judgement FFS get a grip.

And that is the sadest part of our mess - if we had all thee parties working constructively together I DO NOT BELIEVE OUR SITUATION WOULD BE AS DIRE AS IT IS NOW - there would ahve been too much positive momentum and drive coupled with financial prudence to see us so in teh crap - we might be skint, might even be using more kids, but the atmosphers and collective spirit amongst teh club and fans would have us all with a 'we are skint, we are not very good maybe right now, but we dont give a toss what you think because we are saints and we can do this together.' kinda spirit - seriously if this lot got on, each knew waht compromise meant and let each get on with what they did best based on tehir collective experience i think we would be seen as the surprise package of the year... comfortably mid table with the 'team most likely tag' already attached for next season - can but dream....

Waste of time man - all this anger and hate, come on where's the love? ;-)

Duncan, If I may come in here. I dont think fans per sae are anti Mary - I think most have heard enough form wise headsthat she is an honorable and decent person. I think what has been criticised is more to do with how she has aligned her supoort and there are quite a few who ahve issues with Crouch. In addition, I think her initial support of Wilde has been criticised because she went along with teh groundswell that he would be able to turn us around and bring in the 'investors' and the question was what did she do in due diligence terms to check him out? This is naturally an important part of having a directorial role either executively or on a non exec basis - and therefore some have questioned her experience in these matters. I suspect this is perhaops down to her history and background making her see SFC perhaps through the more old fashioned ideals - strong morally and ethically, strong on community etc, but in reality given teh way the game has changed perhaps too idealistic and maybe naive about the 'football business' that it has become? It would not be too far fetched to see this as a major reason why she would never have got on with Lowe. I think for many, myself included, She was probably perfectly placed to be the UNIFYING figure and that would ahve been fantastic, but perhaps the history of her and Lowe, and the perception of naiviety with respect to siding with Wilde then Crouch has made such a role impossible. I think for those reasons she has been criticised, especially if she openly joins the frey by going public with her thoughts and opinions. I dont think there is anything more sinister than that.

Sure you they now we are in the sheite... but for a couple of late goals though we would have stayed in the prem... but for crappy penalties we may have been promoted - under BUrley who many disliked.... What I am saying is, whatever our analysis of the current situation, the pros and cons of any particular regime, we too often forget the role sport has in all this... the simple issue of how one missed penalty can not only make an individual a hero or villain, but the impact it can have over a long period of time on the whole club, financially and sporting. I dont have any facts on the 'issues' abot the reverse takeover, but suggest that although in our eyes morally and ethically suspect, probably no different from what happens in most of such deals - they are afterall ONLY done so someone can get rich - they dont happen so someone can get poor! (which when you think about it is usually actually what happens when you get into the football business! ;-)) Was he the right person? depends on your definition I guess, and if talking to fans about the 'ideal' I agree he would probably be far from it, but thats is kinda irrelevent given that he DID come in and make blunders and allienate fans and give the perception of greed etc... but we did finally move and we did through much luck admittedly start to see more stabilty on the playing side just about, given the huge disparity in economies between the premiership clubs - so it was not all dark - but as in most sports, have a crap season and it can be a disaster - the bigger the gap grows between teh Prem and the CCC, for those clubs without a serious backer, tthat diaster is going to get greater for teh relgated sides.... PS - dont consider you one of the hot heads by the way

I agree about the thrashing things out after the campaign, but IF LOwe and Wilde issued a statement NOW stating they WELCOMED the olive branch and would work up a schedule for POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE talks to begin on season end, would that not be a very positive mesasage to fans, players and teh club as a whole? Come on RUPERT, COME on MIkey - be MEN for once - if you want to hold the 'moral' highground, eaccept this olice branch with good grace and see it as a positive step for once.... Please for the love of god.

Duncan Fair play on your response, even if I dont agree with you on this. I respect your belieif in fighting your corner will lead to your desired aims... but disagree on the methods. I really think we have come to a point where 'NOT all is fair in love and war'. Some hot heads had issues with lowe for 12 years, some more measured have judged the mistakes made ofver teh last five years and drawn tehir own conclusions etc, but the rants, public spats and spin from all sides have got us ...where exactly? further up the creek, no paddle and in a sinking boat... with no arms to paddle through the mire even if we could face it. I would suggest that its the inabilty of those involved to demand straight talking and open professional and mature debate whose very aim is CONSTRUCTIVE that have certainly contributed to the current situation - all parties - and my opinion is that maybe we as fans should be pushing for that rather than doing our own bit for the 'cause' - on either side. I've been acused of everything form a luvvie to fence sitting - but this is because whatever fans do, whilst Lowe, wilde, crouch etc all hold their shares, whilst any of these parties is on the OUTSIDE they will be ****ing in - and holding up whatever the otehrs are doing and ensuring the divisions remain. These parties feed of these fan divisions in thier propoganda wars and the end result is the misery we see now. The moral arguments about democracy and all the things we would like to see are frankly irrelevent as all parties have shown they are NOT prepared to simply be silent on the outside - Its a simple matter of surely doing everything in the fans powers to get them to see SENSE. By partaking in the propoganda war, we merely encourage them. I know i have been guilty of this to, (before UP pops up with another bout of accustaions of hypocracy, in his unique style) , yet despite being highly critical of Wildes tactics when he first arrived, was prepared to hear him out, eventually, naive for sure, but it was done in the right spirit.... Its that spirit whicvh I think the 'down and dirty' tactics undermines. So my question would be: HOnestly, do you believe that even another boardroom suffle with Lowe once again on the oputside will see saints realise the dreams and aspirations that you and all fans have? Or do you think we would just see more of the same, with Lowe, playing the same role crouch now is, digging and jibing from the outside?

Looked rather familiar, sure its not last years proposal? Seriously, how the addityion of politicians and a fan to to board is going to help is rather unclear - the make up of the propoed PLC board would be unworkable - too large and too ineffective - oh did i count it right? Lowe Cowan Wilde Jones Crouch MP1 MP2 Uberfan Would that be a 4/4/voting split or 5/3 - because I cant see anything ever being carried unanimously can you?

To be fair though - Duncan is honest about his agenda - or has been on more than one occaision so it should come as no surprise that he will fight his and teh CRouch/Corbett corner - what is surprising in this case is that it seems quite an extreme tactic for him - I would not have expected such a Low(e) blow. The ambiguity with which that statement was left open is whats most concerning because whatever we think of Lowe, noone really deserves to have mud slung without substantial evidence and this is sadly just gossip and hearsay.

No one quite does these responses like you.... Really not sure what you are saying in part 1 - I merely stated what was said when you speculated about the SOS conversation as a point of clarity - nothing was said publically at the time because 1) we had agreed not to, 2) it was nothing concrete so would it have helped the sitaution by speculating on it? Duncan I believe was the first to hint at it on here, after being ****e off with wilde over something or other- most likely when it looked like he would jump back into bed with Lowe. (On that note I cant believe Crouch did not see that coming after he in effect left Wilde stranded on the outside) Part 2) - not really sure why you find this so difficult to understand - you have said again above that Pearson was 'shocked' as he felt he had a 'positive' meeting - yet you have also claimed it was an open secret that it was unlikely he would be kept on with Lowe/wilde talking to the Europeans - all I am saying is this is a contradiction - I cant believe that Pearson would have been so naive as to not at dispel any truth in the open secret when he met with the club.... and to assume otherwise is to speculate he was deliberately misled on 23rd which would be highly unlikely and would have served what purpose?

If it was an 'open secret' why was Pearson so surprised ? You have said previously, that Pearson was in the dark until that first meeting in May 23 with Lowe and heard he was not getting new contract on teletext... yet he retained a 'dignified silence' knowing he could be replaced... during teh relegation battle...sorry, this is confusing Wilde mentioned to the SOS boys that 'IF' he were to join with Lowe, they were 'thinking' about bringing in a european coach - to try and build a sort of Ajax style seamlessness between academy and first team.... which when put in that context and in isolation did not sound like such a bad idea - the fact it turned out to be JP is another matter.

The biggest problem is actually the anonymity - much of what is discussed on here is discussed with mates down the pub, but it with people you know and because its face-to-face you can reda the true meaning in what folk are saying - most of the arguments on here are simply due to enflamed responses to what is in effect flame mail that hits the wrong note - the anonymity contributes because of the Bullsh!t factor - not really knmowing the value or accuracy of the information - and its one heck of a propoganda tool in the right hands.

THink there is a difference between 'willing' and wanting - I suggest he became more 'willing' when he felt he wanted more control over the destiny of his shares following the realisation that takeovers were pipedreams fuelled by bullsh!tters. NO different from why Wilde did the about turn, Crouch in effect cut him adrift, and Mikey wanted a say in what happened both to his shares + an interest in JF.... the only way to get that was by joining Lowe. So Crouch left the door open for Lowe's return? ;-)

Same could be said for any businessman.... if being honest, dont we all modify our behaviour to suit teh circumstances? Look at the cyber bullying on here!

Ironically, I do actually believe Lowe did NOT want to come back - would much rather have seen someone come in and keep his shares high or buy him and his chums out as a reasonable rate - but no takers. I think he then believed rightly or wrongly that keeping Crouch in charge would make matter worse as crouch the fan had very much given the impression he was prepared to rule with his heart not his head - a ore do or die strategy, that was popular with fans, but ran a guantlet re finance - sure its been argued he was not really given a chance, but its why you have to make sure you keep your aliies close and your enermies closer - he must have known the risk in alienating Wilde... his mistake really because it paved the way for Lowe to return or made it necessaary from LOwes perpsective.... (i will avoid blaming crouch for Lowe's return ;-) - not sure anyone could cope with that mindf**k ;-)) I still find it sad that these guys could not work together, the egos too large the bridges burned, because it would have provided a unity that nothing else could have brought right...

Its a minefield to be honest and to try and second guess whats happening is just impossible. Its also very tricky - on here anyway - to word thoughts in such a way as to dispel any perceived bias or support from an opinion so thats its read in the spirit it was intended... eg when making a criticism of someones strategy or supporting the concept, its just too easy to be labelled as one thing or another - I dopnt mind the labels per sae, but it often means posts are read with prejudice and not taken at face value.... I say all that because, I would suspect that if Lowe and Wilde suddenly had investmnet available AFTER administraion, i to would be very surprised - I eriously cant see this as any sort of strategy that would make sense to Lowe - its too risky in potentially losiong not only his shares, but even if he pulled it off the relegation and loss of whatever good will remains amongst suppliers etc would evapourate. It would be almost impossible for him to thus re build especially given teh animosity from fans. NO I think Lowe's best chance of maintaining his grip adn thus saving his shares is avoiding relegation AND more importantly avoiding administration. So cant see the post admin cash thing happening. As for CRouch, if his two mil was the difference between admin and not, would he put it in unilaterally in the form of a long term loan? I could not bl;ame him if not, but urely the mark of a true fan is we would do anything for the club if it meant keeping it alive, whoever in the hotseat? It would be one hell of a lot to ask, but would finally see him live up to his own self professed billing. Would it be any different if he waited until the administrators were atteh door before making his move? I dont think so, although he would undoubtedly have a greater backing simply because L0we would be gone, yet this would be no different from Lowe doing the same thing really. NOI still believe Lowe will be doing everything possible to avoid teh drop and admin... whether he can or not remains to be seen, but I dont think we will go down without a fight - I hope not anyway.

Shows what I know!

I dont really want to go over old ground as we had teh crouch and the two mil debate on another thread some time ago... it was not pretty! My point being that is 'possible' CRouch knows LOwe and Wilde dont have a spare 2 mil, so even if its genuine , he is pretty sure he wont have to dig into his pockets as hes not offered it unilaterally... I dont hate any of them, i cant because I dont know them, and I dont believe any of them are BEST for the Club, but one thing turns me offmore than anything its empty promises and fan friendly rhetoric with no substance...