gio1saints

Wow. Childishness hits a new low.

The slaughtering of Jack Stephens is not hilarious. Bloke is getting and has got torrents of abuse and he will be his own worst critic - but hey keep piling in with the cheap shots on a thread meant to be discussing the rumour RM is sacked. He made some football mistakes but he’s a honest pro decent bloke - and still our Club Captain. So, abuse him and yiu are disrespecting Southampton Football club. And whether you hate him and hate RM or whoever the hell you need to hate to make it through the day - you should take that on board because there’s many who are Southampton til we die and don’t like people dissing the club like that.

Why ? I would have thought it’s obvious. He was saying that the ( many) critics of some or all of the tactical playbook RM employs need to know what players like him think of the situation and style - because it’s become topic of the season. tHB has hit a job in the EPL next season whatever - so he is no need and is NOT sucking up to his boss. Just pointing that out.

You are having a go at THB. Our best Centreback and a bloke always gives his all for Saints acknowledges support every match. Those were his words being quoted in the Echo. Very rare for a young player to be so specific. Especially a young England international. I don’t think you realised that - giving you benefit of the doubt here - but check Frannies words on same subject in the Echo - which made a lot of sense. If you did mean it - 😵‍💫

Maybe so now I’ve been able to stop working for money…what’s your excuse?

Do you think Brighton and Bournemouth are baked into the top table then? Compared to us currently - yes - historically no. In future also most likely no, for reasons stated.

Unless you are baked into the world football top table, you will never gatecrash the party for too long. Sorry for expressing that cynical view at this time of year but sadly more likely right than wrong. It’s not my personal belief but objectively it looks pretty much the way it is. The argument goes : Clubs like Saints are here to just make up the numbers for the Top Table teams. And when they unearth a new talent - be it manager or player - and results improve - it’s only a matter of time before they get sold to those teams and the results reverse. The argument goes further though - and this part makes me chuckle - “well at least we are not a Derby County, Middlesbrough, LeedsUnited or God forbid a Portsmouth - and we could be unless we do XYZ right now. XYZ usually means spend somebody else’s money on new players new managers or new owners. It can also mean new tactics but usually new tactics are the first thing tried before the new players, managers or owners are brought in. Funnily enough new tactics - though vocally demanded by supporters of a losing team - are often greeted with contempt and more dismay as they are recognised for what they are - a desperate attempt to avoid getting the sack - and unless the results change immediately the chants of “ you don’t know what you’re doing” ring out loud forcing the inevitable. The timescale given to any Manager forced into a “change tactics” scenario is measured in days and weeks not months. Thats why you won’t hear that Saints are “ changing the way we play” - but, ominously or thankfully, take your pick - you will notice that they ARE playing in a different way / ways than before. If you hadn’t noticed or don’t watch the matches you may not be aware but the way we play currently is different to last seasons “possession for its own sake” football ( as some call it- not me). It’s also different from the way we started this season ( which was poor btw😵‍💫) It is evolving - which is a euphemism meaning RM IS changing the way we are playing and changing his instructions to players. One simple example - How many crosses did you see from our fb last season? Earlier this season? How many crosses have Ryan Manning and Yuki been responsible for in last few matches? Crosses were not a feature of our play last season or early this season- they are now. There’s other examples but the point is- if the change, relatively disguised and unheralded as it is, does not work, it’s weeks not seasons usually before RM gets sacked before players get bought and sold indeed if owners change, because this is how the cycle usually works. That means the January window looks like the test of SR willingness to brave it out / splurge more money on a new boss and new players ~ or start wheels in motion to get out of this money losing business. If the results have not improved- regardless of points - then the inevitable will happen. What results? I reckon that next six matches or so we need at least 1.5 points per match RM to still have a job. Not my personal view but just an objective assessment. My personal view is keep him keep the project see it through to the end and go again battle scarred and wiser in the Championship if needs be next season with him and the approach. But that’s just me. Acknowledge most on here think very differently.

Sounds pretty much like the way Saints treated MLT back in the day - just give him the ball let him do whatever he wants with it - the rest of you run around more so he can rest and prepare in/between doing genius stuff! Although TD version of Inbetween genius stuff usually amounts to getting a yellow for shirt pulling - five already this season! Having the level of uncertainty that TD brings- and that of MF let’s not forget who though less flashy still has clearly got @extra@ in him, has made a big difference to our game. And to opponents plans to thwart that “shit passing game” you mentioned. TD is often doubled and trebled up when he gets the ball - and that’s not happened for a long time on a Saints player. It most certainly releases space for others at the very least. I personally think that there was hope and a plan that Charlie, Sam E, Amo or Kameldeen were also able to be that kind of player - but only Tyler - and MF to a degree - have managed it. The rest of our squad, though decent professionals, hardworking and loyal, do not , so far, despite having good intentions, have that higher level of extra “class@ in their locker - only KWP and Aaron deserve the “good EPL player “ tag imo apart from the two kids. The rest - perhaps THB is pushing to join those four - are certainly, and rightly, bottom end of the EPL standard, more accurately described as good/ decent Championship players in the main. Just because you playing in the EPL does not make you an EPL player. It’s quite obvious many of our players are simply not able to raise there standard. Instead- we are blessed with the two talents and just have to hope that the “water carriers “ put in as much work as possible to allow the talents to make things happen.

I’m not sure I understand your point? Are you saying that maybe the “patient passing moves opponents out of position strategy” is evolving under this hapless unable to change Manager of ours? 😂 Or is it that Dibling is deliberately disobeying orders from Russell? 😂 On reflection how is it that three of our most recent goals we scored ( Archer v Arsenal, MF v Liverpool and Downes yesterday) have come from breaks and transition swift passing play? Have the team en masse decided to play differently to the slow boring useless passing way the Manager asks/ tells them? Some mutiny that is! I wonder which it is. Or maybe it’s just luck. Or coincidence. Could not be playing to instructions in an evolving system because RM is a useless stubborn unable to change or adapt manager as we all know. 😂😂😂

I cannot make this now. One seat. Sold Out. Anybody wants my place in Block 41 Northam let me know. Face value of course. Will put it in the Saints exchange next week if no interest here by then. Message me & leave mob. G.

Yes I think you are right. The defence is bad. Our attackers do t score as much as they should. The goal (s) we conceded many was rubbish. Our best young players will get stolen/ sold. That scenario has happened on and off the last fifty years. Whether it’s under SR and RM or any other ownership leadership. I just have a small flickering flame of belief that there is something going on that could really be different this time at SFC. If and when it restarts from the Championship next season I’m sanguine. We kept KWP last time but I doubt we can keep both TD and MF if we go down which would be a great shame as they give me value for my ST. BUT : we got two perhaps under this regime we will get more.

Yes I think that’s what happened. But in real life football not with a hundred replays and var that goal looks offside to me as a ref Lino flagged it or not. And I would have chalked it off. Human error I know - wrong reason apparently - but I prefer that to the explanation ultimately given.

On the offside - agree with many on here. As a HantsFA qualified ref I would have given that offside without a seconds hesitation. Lino flagged its offside carry on. That VAR took so long to faff about before ultimately confirming the onfield decision was shitty and pisses everyone off. Russell’s explanation from a pro footballers perspective is exactly what he should say - the goalie was not impeded - But the on-field decision was offside and if it was for Brighton I’d have been aggrieved if it had been not been disallowed. Just annoys me the VAR interpretation on “interfering with play for an offside goal” ends up being just as subjective and liable to human error as if there was no var and it’s back down to the ref and his assistants. No difference really just we lost 4 minutes waiting and all got angry.

Thought the away support was brilliant all match. Yet again. Bad first half epitomised by Archer shinning a chance someone like Vardy (or insert 90% of forwards in this league - ) would score in their sleep. Second half competitive but not dominant. VAR has not been our friend this season but neither have our set pieces or general defending - which is bottom of the league standard rubbish. Noticeably our main goal threat last bunch of games appears to be mostly from fast breaks on the transition - and it’s planned - and seemingly effective - Archers goal v Arsenal, his contentious disallowed goal and the Fernandes goal v Liverpool all last few weeks examples. Kind of disappointing if you are one of the many who like to go on about how boring and slow we are as a team. Kind of ruins the narrative. The team is evolving. The style is evolving. Arguably, progressively in recent matches there’s signs. Probably way too slowly to avoid relegation. None of Liverpool, Arsenal, Brighton or Man City have made us look “out of our depth”. The top four in this league. Decapitate the boss, install a new regime and unsettle this now near 18months in the baking evolving team with some breakout young stars now flourishing and leading it - like TD and MF - at your peril SR! Each match they look better and better. And that’s been versus the best in the league. Credit where it’s due.

I am not. That is not correct. Lots of what you say is legitimate and informed even prescient but that comment is not one of them.

@verlaine1979I respect your POV but the style of football played is not really the key point. My rebelliousness or stupidity if that’s what you see it as is because ultimately, we never win. And I do not see that changing. Unless other big things change. Saints do not win. Whatever style we play and have played in our history - and there’s been MANY variations - we do not end up winning the league winning the cup winning in Europe or even close. Thats the backdrop and our history and, frankly, our future. Whatever manager whatever style. We have had Poch, Koeman, Keegan, Bale and Shearer VVD and Mane - but we still never win. What we do, if we have had a bounty of great players all at same time plus manager, is have maybe a season or two in which we look competitive. Get to a Final perhaps. Then we sell and go back to being what we’ve always been. A feeder club to the clubs you say “ play better football”. Back to struggling Saints. No big revelation here but the main reason those other clubs “ play better football” is because they are able to snatch the best players and the best managers from the other clubs like Saints year after year. Find outliers by all means but for the most part that’s the way it is. And how has that situation arisen and is it now locked in so that teams like Saints can never get to Top Table?? I think the answer is yes. And I resent it. Small aside : I actually thought the Liverpool match was the opposite of navel gazingly boring shit - but we all view matches differently. The ultimate outcome is pre ordained - and most Saints fans would have told you at 2-1 v Liverpool we were still going to lose this. Not in the sense of “ match -fixing” but on a deeper, structural way football is set up level. My 50 years of watching Saints NOT win but supporting them throughout with a smile despite it all tells me that this is the status quo. Get over it I used to say to myself. Enjoy the little victories we are allowed. Enjoy some nice moments on a match day. Smile wryly in that Saints dark humour way when we lose again. I still do all that but here I’m espousing the other side if it as well. I can hold both beliefs simultaneously. And in any case why should Saints fans and the rest of the also ran clubs in this grand money making scheme be too bothered about how we or they play ? Indeed, as long as it’s “ entertaining” what’s wrong? The gladiator contests were also meant to be entertaining. But watching the charade of competitive football matches in this fixed system is sometimes too much even for my mature stomach. And this is the nub of the argument, why not do something counterintuitive like play in this almost freakish style of ours? If playing the game the way we have played it for 50 years with so many variations has delivered the square root of f all why not try this freakish way? Why not? Because we might lose even more? Because it’s humiliating? I think what’s humiliating is the big screen at SMS constantly replaying Bobby Stokes goal from 1976 as the highlight of our existence. Or beating Carlisle. Or those c ants on the TV smugly grinning when they talk about us.

Maybe so. But maybe your response - which to be fair is what most Saints fans reading might think of my outre comment, is an example of Stockholm syndrome, Saints-style. Thats certainly something you might like to call BS on. But are you 100% sure I’m wrong? Are Saints supporters coping with the perpetual failure of our club to ever win anything, to losing all our best players the minute they look like they might be any good , by harbouring positive feelings about our tormentors? Instead of fighting them we love them. Instead of wanting to escape we aspire to be like them. Like poor urchins looking in the windows of a big store at Xmas time we get vicarious pleasure from their success- and our ongoing degradation. Saints will remain mediocre failures in perpetuity as long as we remain grateful to accept the crumbs of our masters. We will never win anything with that attitude. Something radical is required. Well, that’s what I believe. You surely don’t. Most don’t. Most think just a tweek here and a tweek a player or two then, okay, even play a bit more direct and get a nice shiny manager who has a reputation for doing good things and we got ourselves a team. Yeah, a team gonna finish 15th then 11th then get relegated when all our best players get swiped and start again. Im so over that cycle. Seen it over and over and over again for 50plus tears. And I mean tears not years. Any alternative needs be radical. Or otherwise what’s the point? More of the same. And it will look mad. Yeah for sure it will look crazy. But, Look beyond penalty area kamikaze passing around and possession stats and just think Saints are not fucking playing your game your way anymore. We always fucking end up losing. Let me repeat that : WE ALWAYS END UP LOSING . So we going to lose doing it OUR way? Probably. …… OR- maybe we crack the God mode code for football and start beating these mothers for once, keeping our players and winning stuff. Cue Russell Martin. Maybe he is too radical too mad zeromedals f all points to date. But he certainly brings game. Support him.

Anybody know how much profit the average EPL club makes? Don’t worry it’s not a trick question. The average EPL club does NOT make a profit. There are many ways to lose money owning a football club. Buying the club is the first and best way! There are Teams that are much higher up, play much better - or more effective - football and have way more points than us. And they don’t faff around playing kamikaze football in the penalty area either, usually. These Teams also have prestige trophies medals superstars history big stadia and more supporters than us. Many - most - Saints supporters want us to be like them - trying to win in a rigged system, somehow. Not many people come out and call it for what it is - a massive con - a gobsmackingly huge game of bait and switch. The bait is the “ glory” - the bait is “ shirt sales” “image rights” “ transfer fees” “ Premier league money” and most of all “ global prestige/ media love-in and sport-washing. The switch happens when you look see under the bonnet after you bought one of these clubs. I see clubs carrying debt debt debt and shifting it around like some mental Ponzi scheme. And the clubs who are the cleverest at carrying and shifting carrying and shifting lots of debt usually win the medals the trophies have the superstars and supporters the prestige and the sportwashing also. It’s not even an English thing. Most the powerhouse euro clubs are have ridiculous debt. I don’t think SR have much “feeling” for that way of playing the game of football club ownership. Saints fans are right. They don’t know how to do proper football ownership. They haven’t even sacked RM yet when that’s what you are supposed to do. Get a bunch more debt on board like everyone else and get with the programme SR! No, that’s not my personal advice. My personal advice is stick two fingers up at the programme and defy the prevailing paradigm - and make money doing so. Unlike the rest of the clubs. RM is perfect in that context and despite not getting any points to date if god forbid we should actually make money AND win games then there’s going to be a revolution. But I don’t think the system will like that so the quicker they shut RM and this way of doing it down, the better. Too much money at stake to be allowed to prevail.

One of the questions that SR are most probably analysing is this: Is it better* to ditch RM ( which means pay him off ) and then spend on new players/new manager January, to the limit of FFP, in an all-out bid to avoid relegation or Wait until end of season with RM and current players maybe let him have a forward in Jan and see where we are at? Quite frankly, IF we are going down as seems super likely what’s the point of blowing big borrowed wads -isn’t it more prudent to go down without blowing the budget - to give a bit of a kitty for the Championship recruitment and sales? My rough ready recliner puts the opportunity cost of replacing RM at north of £30m. That’s him and his team gone, cost of recruiting a decent new manager ( and his team) plus the essential at least one or two decent new players the new manager will demand. And that expenditure and club disruption has no guarantee of avoiding the drop. Indeed the most likely scenario is that we do NOT turn into Brighton or Brentford overnight nor manage a “ Great Escape“ nor do most of our first team squad players suddenly turn into EPL standard players even in a different say more pragmatic style of football- see D. Moyes. Aside from TD and MF imo who are predestined stars already. That means relegation either way / but we also spent an extra £30m and turned the club upside down when we maybe didn’t need to. As Farmer Saint has noted, going down and returning along with astute player trading may be a more profitable operating strategy than overspending to try and finish 16th or 13th each year but being constantly broke. I’m not saying I like it or I agree with it- but it’s a credible strategy to make money. Put into that kind of context it does not matter to SR as much as we might imagine if RM takes us down - as long as we can recruit more Tyler Diblings and Mateus Fernandes who want to play this now infamous and instantly recognisable style of football. They are possibly already £50m worth of players and by end of season maybe more. THB now he’s got his cap and that goal is going that way also. Who else wants to join Saints and maybe become the next superstar? I think that if that way of thinking has any traction with SR - and I’ve an inkling it does- I’d be surprised if they gave RM the boot before year end if at all. * “ better = financially better - not necessarily same as better for supporters or better style of football or better hair style of next manager)

I’m in the Northam mate. Here to support Saints in person. 😇COYS.

That does look the approach SR are following. It’s unpopular with fans - but pencilling in a high probability of relegation this season and budgeting spending accordingly is simply good housekeeping. It’s what id do with my own money.

@Tommy Mulgrew Tried to send you this by message but you cannot accept messages so here is my reply: You’ve got a very valid point for sure. I do not disagree with your conclusion ~ that it’s madness, essentially. That we probably got a better chance of staying up changing the style of play ( which means change the manager basically). And you guess right- I’m not so fussed if (when) we do ultimately go down playing this way - as long as we show progress and development that is. My view is that Saints players and Manager are currently not good enough to try what is fairly transparently to copy Man City. We currently get there in some metrics ~ but we also currently fail badly in the most important ones. Hence bottom of the league. I’d like to think we will improve as we learn hard lessons- but only if we stick to the principles. If we go all flip flop it will be worse- imo. Yes it means that “brave” word that everyone hates needs come out. But I guess “ madness” is as good a synonym for what’s going on in its place instead👍 Im glad you understand that I genuinely hope for Saints one day to break through and end this almost non stop struggle we have been in throughout our entire existence just to survive at top table. And that - maybe- madness if that’s how best to describe it- has as good a chance as any to do so. I am probably wrong I am probably too idealistic and I am probably too stubborn for holding onto the belief that it can be done and we are NOT doomed to follow the same just about survive occasionally drop occasionally make a final cycles that Saints have played out over the five Decades plus I’ve been following. If I post stuff like the above on the forum I will inevitably elicit real visceral and personal hatred which is frightening in its intensity sometimes - and so If you are inviting me to my own stoning here I am. Saintly regards, Gio

No one can disagree with the principles of adaptation . But it may take longer than we think though, especially given the players RM has available. In a hypothetical max adaptation. world - if RM were to “adapt” 180 degrees we’d see goal kicks and goalie drop kicks come back into play. Less or zero passing from the back. All mostly to the head of Tall Paul or into space, Tall Paul will try to control it or knock it on and past last man forSulemana to use his pace and skill to get in and shoot/score. Archer / Tyler is on the other wing for same. Our mf has Lesley in it for beef to win headers/challenges plus Lallana or Mateus for skill, Downes can play the quarterback position aiming to hit long diagonal balls for the forward line from slightly behind the other three mf. Goalie is AM for now so kicking the ball far away suits him for sure! That leaves three best remaining defensive players in THB, KWP and Yuki. They only need three cos they won’t be touching the ball much and just need be tidy and swift when we they have ball - before they kick it long to TP Sule and Tyler. Or if they overlap. The main thing in this new adaptation is bypass the ineffective midfield passes and get into last third way quicker. Other adaptation includes man marking from corners - not zonal, and shooting on sight and vastly accelerated advancement of play. A disruptive game like what Bournemouth do. Instructions should be a demand for at least 15 shots per match or no match fee. There, tried to think of as much the opposite of what we do atm but with the squad and best players we have to use. Would it be better than what we do atm? Could hardly get fewer points - though it’s possible, and maybe get worse beatings but it might also work. Is this what is meant by RM adapting the tactics do you think at its most extreme?

It is that. Of course everybody feels bad - most of the posters are incredibly passionate about Saints. We all want to win not lose. But no need to start off that explanation with a bunch of abuse because another supporter see things differently and especially because they have a different view in how long the change required ( to enable us not just to be a survival specialist but actually, for once, be competitive at the top) will realistically take. Very fair points cannot disagree with that. Picking up on the Lallana part - and hypothetically how it might work : IF (and I think my views on this are well known!😁) RM is relieved and AL is asked to step in as caretaker it would /should probably / almost certainly be with an old hand helping him - or vice versa ( him as right hand man to an older gaffer - funnily enough Roma just doing exactly this …with Ranieri) as this is a relegation battle and hardly anyone decent AND experienced is gonna want to buy a almost guaranteed ticket to the Championship - and heap the iginomy of relegation to their resume. Unless there’s a big wad involved and they are past all that ego stuff of younger managers. Names like RVN are just nonsense imo. And I think Moyes would not take it either even though he’s about the best available out there. Or Southgate eeek! A short term deal basically. Not saying Redknapp age but you know the type I mean. Possibly battlescarred enough to play whatever football is required but no expectation of staying up. This foretells Probably an ugly end to the season with no style of play apparent just changing from match to match on a pragmatic basis according to the opposition. Many here argue we will have an even uglier end to season if we don’t change manager. Thats not my view btw. 😂. Nothing wrong with that pragmatic approach either.Its just not been the pathway of last 16 months There are plenty ways to play football. If and when we go down then the Board can assess whether to make the Lallana appointment permanent - or not. And whether to keep old gaffer- or not. But if you asked me to pick a Manager who knows how to get out the Championship and knows our players inside out and already has their commitment and buy in despite what’s happening at present in EPL - I’d say probably the best ( and most cost effective - that IS important to the biz front forget ) is to keep RM. If he goes second best is Moyes with AL on a short term til end season deal and then review.

QED. Come back at me and say you disagree- but preceding it with this sort of stuff - from you and too many others - is why it’s rare you see a pro RM or optimistic aligned post on here. 👍