Forester

While I would be delighted to get Potter, I fear there is no chance of him coming. However you are misinformed, he has managed one season in the championship (Swansea) and did not get promoted

The Board members on front row of directors box took some time to return to their seats in second half. The are close to my seat, and we suspected this meant a meeting was happening

Credible and available appointments for me are Benitez and Cooper. Potter and Moyes I fear not credible, although could have been if Board hadn’t been negligent and acted after Bournemouth debacle all those weeks ago.

I learned my lesson 20 years ago when I wanted us to lose and sack Wigley. And we know how that ended up….

To mitigate against the risk that I am sure the Board are grappling with, re cost of sacking and risk of not getting next appointment right, I think if fans want a change (as I do) we need to accept that, because of the ridiculous delay in taking a decision that was obvious to most fans after the Bournemouth game, we now need to find a manager who will give us an outside chance of staying up but more likely would be a good fit to manage us in the championship. Had we have acted sooner, we would have had more choice, something many of us pointed out two months ago. So by definition that now rules out some of the bigger names. I think a good choice under the circumstances would be Steve Cooper. The case for: - managed Swansea for two seasons and achieved play offs both times, the latter being beaten at Wembley - took Forest up at first ask - kept Forest up first season, before being sacked in second season - has just been sacked by Leicester, another promoted team, while being outside the bottom three. He isn’t the sexy appointment some will want, but he fits the profile of available, and could manage in both divisions.

I would give my right arm for a boring 8th placed finish, or 43 points finishing anywhere in the table!

Just back from the game after a wild and wet day. I thought we played well first 20 mins and looked creative, but as soon as their goal went in our lack of confidence showed. We never tested Martinez once, which is criminal, and in truth a much changed Villa never got out of third gear. Best players today in my view were KWP and Wood, with Aribo playing well after coming off the bench. Not too much else to shout about. Given we have now allowed Martin to manage nine more league games since the Bournemouth disaster, which is when I felt he should have gone, for the paltry return of an additional four points, I assume we have just given up and will stick with for the rest of the season to avoid paying compensation. It would be helpful if the Board had the balls to just say this, that in effect results are irrelevant and it’s all one big development opportunity.

In order for this window to have any meaning beyond reducing the squad size down, we need in my opinion to be in double figures of points. Last season it was possible to have stayed up with just 30 points, and so at the halfway mark, which is eight more games, we need to be not too far short of half that total. Unrealistic in my view that we will pick up 11 more points, which is what is needed to even reach this low milestone, by halfway, but it’s crucial we are a win or so away. Realistically I see our only path to this being to win the Wet Spam and Palace games, and perhaps a draw in one or two other matches. If we could do this and be on 12 points there is enough of a sniff to encourage a player to sign. Otherwise it’s a suicide pact.

As I have posted a few times here, I would have pulled the trigger after Bournemouth, since then we have lost four of the following five games, two against direct rivals. The reality I fear is that the Board have concluded that, because of their poor decision making two seasons ago, there are insufficient funds to BOTH change the manager and buy players in January. It’s one or other. And I also think they believe they will be in a more secure financial picture after relegation than we were a year or so ago, and with less heavy lifting in the squad. It’s likely, not certain, that we would have the following players available and prepared to play championship football next season: Baz, McCarthy, Bree, Manning, Suga, Taylor, Bednarek, Stephens, Wood, Edwards, Downes, Charles, Fraser, Edozie, SAA, Aribo, Smallbone, Armstrong, Stewart, BBD, Archer. This squad looks light of midfield options, but that is about it for that level. So you could see it being strong with two or three additions. I have assumed that Ramsdale, KWP, THB, ABK, Fernandez, Tall Paul, Kamaldeen and Dibbling would all be sold, and the loans would expire. I estimate this could raise around £150 million in total, and possibly more as some saleable assets are on long contracts. The great shame is that despite the appalling start to our season we are only four points off safety, and so I still feel we could be attractive to a new manager. But I accept it would need someone prepared to manage in the championship if needed.

8th, having sold Mane, Pelle and VVD going on strike, then injured before being sold mid-season. Took us to Wembley not even conceding a single goal en route, including Emirates and Anfield. And asked to manage a 50 plus game season with three home games in a dead month in MY, which will never happen again I suspect. Removed as some fans said “not entertaining enough”.

We are the only promoted team in bottom three, and all teams have now played more than half of their opponents

Just back. Incidentally that ranks as one of the most subdued away support atmospheres I have ever experienced, and I have watched most away games through both Premier League relegations and all the way down to League One. Almost as if our fan base has given up. Turning to the on field stuff, after a mindless goal to concede I thought we looked good, creative and positive first half. Then Martin changes it, we lose our back three shape that has made us harder to score against, and simultaneously looked less creative. We went from controlling the game to looking hapless. I said after the Bournemouth game he should have gone, he should not have been entrusted with these three key games against Leicester, Everton and Wolves which were crucial, and we have emerged with just three points. We now have blown winnable, or at least drawable, games against Forest, Brentford, Leicester, Bournemouth and Wolves, and dropped two points against Ipswich.

Selles, like many of our signings that season, was way too inexperienced to cope, let alone thrive, in hopelessly difficult circumstances. I thought he would develop into a good manager and it appears he is. It was madness to start in the Premier League, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets back there at some point. Reading are a broke shambles and he is performing miracles up there. The fans love him

If I am reading the briefing correctly, they are saying, in effect, “next few games crucial”. To my mind this is worse than saying nothing. If we do lose our next three games, it is almost impossible to stay up and almost impossible, as a consequence, to attract a good manager. While absolutely not supporting it, I at least can comprehend why they may stay with Martin despite relegation. But to sack him after these last crucial opportunities is madness. It needs to happen before the Everton and Wolves games.

Benitez took charge of Newcastle late in season and couldn’t stop them being relegated. He stayed with them, won the championship the following year, and kept them mid table after being promoted

I haven’t changed my mind from the last post I made on this after the Bournemouth game. He did a good job getting us up, the style of play is attractive, but in my opinion we are nailed on to go down if we stick with him. My argument for pulling the trigger back then was that a new manager could have had the international break and been in place to manage these three crucial games against Leicester, Everton and Wolves. We didn’t do that, and we have now wasted another winnable game. Leave it much longer and the list of possible replacements will shrink by the week. Incredible as it seems, we are still only one win away from being outside of the drop zone, and there are three other teams yet to win a game. So it literally cannot be “hopeless” if we make a change, while still remaining tough. Last season was the first that it was possible mathematically to stay up on 30 points and it may be that low this season. We may need to win eight game along with half a dozen draws. Let’s not give up.

I was there last night. Before the game I had posted to say that I wanted him to succeed but if we lost then this is the time to pull the trigger as Arsenal is a free hit, we have international break, and there are still 30 odd games without being cut adrift. The choice of managers will shrink by the week. Not only do I think this remains the case, but last night firmed things up in my mind. Why do I say this? - if you take Martin’s own words after the Manure and Ipswich matches, he “loved” some of the things he saw, talked up Fernandes and Dibbling, etc. We were “so close” to that win, we heard. So why the hell do you move Dibbling away from right wing and ask Fernandes to play as a striker? - not only is this crass stupidity but it damages the development and confidence of young players. I felt genuinely sorry for both in that first half - choosing to put FIVE strikers on the bench is reckless. Quite apart from the obvious point being that one or two needed to start, what would have been the plan if Jan or THB had got injured or red card after 5 mins yesterday? Were all three of ABK, Wood and Edwards injured or ill? - he has mismanaged now games against Forest and Bournemouth (by his own admission), and we were piss poor against Brentford. I am afraid I have now lost confidence in giving him control of crucial games against Leicester, Wolves and Everton. We probably only need to win 8 or 9 games this season with 6 or 8 draws. Maybe less. We can squeeze out narrow victories against our rivals with the right selection and tactics. I fully accept the team is weak compared to many, but 4th bottom is not impossible Act now

Lots of passionate certainty expressed on this thread! Surely the fair and balanced summary would be: - it has been difficult for promoted teams to stay up for many years, arguably harder by the year because of the financial rewards in being part of the Premier League increasing, and they usually start as bookie favourites to go down - this has become exacerbated by financial fair play rules in recent years which means that the “go for broke” strategy can’t easily be an option - we appear particularly vulnerable in the striker department, with very few goals at the top level in the squad -however, it is not INEVITABLE that the promoted teams go down, as was amply demonstrated when we were relegated and not a single promoted team dropped - the margin between the promoted teams and Everton, Palace, Wolves, Brentford and Bournemouth is not ENORMOUS, and top quality coaching, both midweek and in-game management, can make the difference at the margins. This was best illustrated last season I think at Brentford and Bournemouth - and this works both ways, so mistakes are possible at our relegation rivals which may lower the bar needed to clear - as a consequence it is increasingly credible to imagine that a team can stay up winning eight or nine games with six or seven draws. These wins could be wholly achieved in fixtures between these names teams, but we have already played two such fixtures and picked up one point - so tomorrow is huge, and another defeat I think will just demand a change. I really hope it doesn’t happen as I like Martin

If we really want to bypass the press we need to play Stewart and allow Ramsdale to periodically play the ball long. It was noticeable how this option was non existent with Fraser and Archer part of a front three, with Archer:s hold up play poor. I would be tempted to play Archer on the left and Stewart centre forward.

I posted last week that defeats to both Ipswich and Bournemouth would, sadly, see the Board act and change manager, ahead of Arsenal away and international break, which looks like a useful three week period to execute a change. I have no insight on whether this is/was correct, but it’s what I expect. So how does yesterday leave us? Case for the defence I think is 1. We have seen huge changes in squad personnel. Of the 16 players who appeared yesterday, only 6 played any material role in last season (ie Dibbling and Stewart didn’t). Martin has only had five games with them, and some of them have signed after the league season started, plus two cup games that have been won. So this makes it sound premature to consider. 2. There are some encouraging signs of improvement, with Fernandes, Lallana, Dibbling and Taylor all improving the balance of the team since August games. So does this just need some more time? 3. My view of yesterday, and I think the XG stats support this, is most times that game being replayed would have been a win. However, Archer fails to take either big chance, as he did with last week’s penalty. In other words the team created enough. And the deflection most weeks doesn’t play out the way it did. 4. We now have a point, and there are six teams without a win still. So early days. However, I still think he is still in the danger zone (sadly, as I like him). The reality is we will need to win probably nine games this season, and Forest and Ipswich at home are surely credible candidates. Bournemouth needs to produce at least a point, as otherwise following likely defeat at Arsenal we will have one point from seven games. And as cruel as it would seem (as it did when Adkins left), we have to give it everything in staying up. The key factor I think for the Board if we lose at Bournemouth will be that making a change with over 30 games left and others still in touch means we can attract a decent list of candidates to replace. However if we leave this to the pre-Christmas games the opportunity shrinks. I hope we win at Bournemouth, are talking about four points from two games, and are on the up. But I still think Board will be more ruthless than some believe if this doesn’t happen.

A pretty mean spirited set of comments on here. Both teams made plenty of changes, we were away from home, and looked much the better team. Thought we were more creative than against Forest, Brentford and Manure (after the first 25 mins on Saturday). Positives for me: - I thought the whole back four played well, and Wood looked a proper player unlike the Cardiff game. From yesterday I can see why Martin likes him. - we are well stocked for full backs, with both Taylor and Bree (in that order) looking good options if we want to or need to make a change. Not all clubs battling relegation may have that depth. - Lallana looked good in a Pirlo-style holding midfielder role, running the game as did Erikson I thought for Manure Saturday. I would start him alongside Downes rather than Big Les on Saturday (Les more suited to Arsenal away). - Cornet starting to build up sharpness having not played much football lately. Thought he looked much better than Saturday. - I thought McCarthy failed to dominate his area for their goal, but that one costly error apart played well. Of concern was Armstrong who seems low on confidence, and BBD is busy but not yet effectual. But overall a good night

Per comments on the Manure thread, if we lost to both Ipswich and Born Muff I would expect him to go. Assuming we would then lose to Arsenal regardless of who was in charge, that would be zero points from seven games. I hope this doesn’t happen, as I would like him to succeed. However we cannot simply write the season off, and this would enable a change to be made in the week building up to Arsenal and then use the international break to get the new man in. I think it unlikely that we would be more than six points adrift of safety and we could attract a manager to have 31 games including the January window on this basis. As others have said, leave it much longer and the list of applicants gets very thin. Fingers crossed all of this becomes unnecessary.

Agree with this, I think back to back defeats against Ipswich and Bournemouth would see them pull the trigger, install caretaker for Arsenal and have that week and the international break to sort the change. I hope this won’t happen, but agree this is not going to be something the owners will ignore if it continues

Amongst all the doom and gloom, there are some interesting and good selection dilemmas: - which two from three good full backs/wing backs, with Suga looking good, but Taylor offering the chance for KWP to revert to right hand side? - stick with back three, where we have actually looked defensively solid (the third goal at Brentford was rank bad defending but we had back four by then), or try back four? Which of three centre backs to drop? - dependent on formation, how to get our likely most creative players on pitch in Lallana, Dibbling, Fernandez, Cornet and Fraser without overdoing it? - play BBD as central striker, most likely to hold up the ball and play back to goal, or go for Archer? Everyone will have their own answers, but it isn't clear and easy, and Martin will himself need to work through these to understand his best team and that may take more than one game since the signings all arrived. But time is ticking away

If the next batch of games are a disaster, have no doubt he will be gone. We fired Jones weeks after giving him a four year deal