The9

I remember when this was mooted for Pochettino's arrival, to show the displeasure at Adkins' sacking. The club judged that the supposed protest was not enough of a risk to prevent them re-stocking the hand towels in the loos, and they were right... Incidentally the only thing that would be embarrassing there would be the people waving the hankies.

What's he going to improve? Sign a big bloke up top with no resale value for extortionate money, stand all the midfielders we know can't shoot in the most efficient positions on the edge of the box and watch them continue to fail to hit the target... ...is it purely a motivational thing? Because the longer term damage of rapidly veering off the established development path for a short term fix could be far worse than just switching tactics or focus internally for a few months, or trying some different coaches. Much as I think the problem is Les' complacency, the solution is not Allardyce in any way, shape or form.

I don't think it's unsaveable tbh, but it needs some rapid reworking of the first team approach first and some aligned strategic re-thinking below that. It's not really a surprise that our post-Cortese approach of basically being financially competent and making sensible mid-term decisions is not unique any more, or that selling everyone any good isn't long-term sustainable. We managed alright out of it for a while but everyone else is doing that stuff now too - and of course everyone's got £100m more to mess around with which changes the dynamic.

Realistically that went out of the window when we didn't pick Van Dijk until mid-September (or arguably by drawing 0-0 with Swansea on the opening day), and the takeover has always been a wild card which I wasn't actually expecting to happen and doesn't seem to be much of a positive so far. We're still looking like a "somehow 8th" to me again at the moment, but a going backwards midtable finish seems more likely unless there's upheaval, which could mean internal review or less impressively, another responsibility-dodging "throwing the manager under the bus" moment. We've been incredibly disappointing from an entertainment AND results perspective - it's mental that these are the same players that stuck 4 on Sunderland and Watford in successive away League games only 8-9 months ago (other than Clasie who played 3 minutes and injury time at Watford). Still, my home town club is doing pretty well in L2.

...and even when they cross it, who are they crossing it to?

Again, basically the same stuff, the point of the diamond or central striker is a matter of a couple of yards - Ward-Prowse sure as hell didn't make it work in that 4 goal pre-season thrashing either. Personnel not positions are what's important in modern systems, which are usually too flexible for accurate categorisation. Pochettino-era Saints with the full backs ahead of the defensive midfielders shows how irrelevant conventional formations are. About the only argument worth having nowadays is with that helmet on here who lists the goalkeeper as part of it.

Yeah, I was having this argument with a mate yesterday - the rumour put around (apparently including MLT on Talk Sport) was that he wanted to remain defensive, but it makes no sense in the context of his previous role at Nice where he picked the un-defensive likes of Hatem Ben Arfa as a creative midfielder, or when looking at the goals scored when the team wasn't playing multiple games in a week. It also wasn't him that signed Shane Long to play on the left because he's got great defensive tracking qualities, which was a classic Moneyball Black Box signing.

Koeman statement: https://southamptonfc.com/news/2016-06-14/statement-southampton-accept-ronald-koemans-resignation "build on our long-term plan, and work with a new management team who share both the club’s and our supporters’ values and ambitions." That management team doesn't share the club's values comment appears to have been a dig about Koeman (eg) signing Elia/Djuricic rather than picking the kids, and changing the formation so it wasn't the same as the rest of the club's teams were playing. It bloody worked though. Reed is a widely respected coach with a few books on systems (you may remember the CBs going wide of the box for goal kicks and the entire routine when Kelvin was in goal - that was in one of his books), it seems to me that we've overlooked that systems change and regularly develop to counter other systems, and we've been left behind and got stagnant, and that's also reflected in player apathy.

Barely any difference between 4231 and 433 diamond anyway, just the balance in the role of the second holding midfielder, and ours went forward plenty anyway when Schneiderlin (and last season Ward-Prowse) did it.

He was absolutely fantastic at sidestepping in an arc in front of the back 4 without ever influencing the ball or any opponent. Genuinely the worst professional player I've ever seen in a Saints shirt, at least Ali Dia had a shot in his half an hour.

3-5-2 would invoke the wrath of Les. Koeman did it and got told off when he left. The club PR has made it very clear who's in charge...

I think it's to come 3rd by conceding a last minute goal costing us the title, then to lose to an offside goal or penalties in the play-off final every season for 10 years in a row. Until it becomes boring. I'm fairly sure the plan is actually still to get into Europe every other year, I can only assume they're going big on the FA Cup this season.

I think you'll find we'll come second.

Weird how people see what they want. He's put in shedloads of last minute blocks, the only time I can say I thought he wasn't putting it in was in the U23 game against Villa, when everyone was awful, the back 4 got zero protection from midfield, and he was ambling back. Attitudes to playing in the reserves have always varied, but I could see why he wouldn't put in 100% there - not that it was acceptable. I also have no idea what he was doing for Salah's 2nd at Anfield, trying not to get into conspiracy theories on that one though.

I tell him to keep doing what he's doing, except whatever he was doing for Liverpool's second. He's been our best player since he came back, with only Lemina even in the same book. Tell him we'll sell him in the summer, and not before.

Alaves.

Exactly.

Interresting reasoning, stubborn or being told what is and isn't acceptable?

Quite. The "play two up top" argument only works if we've got players who can create things with one fewer body than the opposition in midfield - we can't even do it at the moment matching them up.

As identified last season, he needs to pass the ball to the striker and not shoot when on the edge of the box - if he did that, he'd create some questions in the defenders' minds about what they need to do to stop him. Right now, just let him come inside and shoot every time, 5% success rate. Everyone putting on a Saints shirt can improve plenty at the moment, which is part of the problem. Incidentally, I remember you banging on about how awful Pelle was... in our best season for 20+ years.

I think the hierarchy (mainly Reed) has got rather complacent and assumed our tactics worked so will always work - in the past 3 years the only time we've significantly switched tactics was when Koeman went 3/5 at the back in response to a slump, and he was slated by the club for that when he left. It looks like the managers since are doing as they're told which makes us predictable and easy to defend against, not assisted by a distinct lack of on-field energy which we no longer have fatigue as an excuse for. We've gone from missing loads of chances to not creating enough to begin with, and of course from conceding very few chances, to far more of them as well as it feeling like we concede from every decent attack. It might be, of course, that all this complacency is down to Pellegrino, but it seems unlikely. Logical thinking won't keep him in a job though, as last summer proved.

The main thing we're still missing is a player who creates chaos around the opposing box, whether that's a Mane who runs at people or a Lallana who can hold the ball up there, keeps it moving and pulls players towards him. Everyone and his dog knows if you give Redmond a yard 20 yards out he'll shoot off target and you can just ignore Tadic in the box as he won't shoot unless it's on his left foot with an open goal and he's stood on the goalline. Davis is trying his best but he's a worker not a creator, and he's going to be on a downhill slope very soon if not already, and Lemina who seems to have creativity from his international position hasn't been tried. Boufal is creative but hasn't found the consistency yet. The other thing that's not happening (and was a problem last season) is Bertrand overlapping as much - I assume we stopped it because we rarely created a chance from it, yet we persist with Cedric crossing to no-one all the time. We always had a defence magnet until Mane went. Even so, these exact same players were good enough for 8th last season and a cup final, which means they're still good enough for it now.

I don't think they'll be looking for the same kind of thing as us.

1W 3D 4L, including Man City, Liverpool, Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal when playing back to back midweek and weekend games. Not quite the same as only playing one midweek match all season (with mostly reserves) so far this year, we comfortably beat teams in the only period of last season when we didn't have loads of games - 11 Feb to 8 April saw us win 4, draw 1 and only lose to Man U at Wembley and Spurs away. No way comparable, it looks like the (same) players have just got hugely complacent.

While I don't agree with the first sentence, I have some sympathies with the rest of it.